1890 Proof Indian Head Please Grade

I am going to send this coin in to get graded. Want to know what you all feel the grade will be in the end. There are a couple of things that concern me with this coin, but mostly the first three feathers which appear to be worn.

I did a little research on the year which is known for weak strikes which was true with the proofs as well. I even found a couple of PCGS PR IHC pictures for 1891, and confirmed this is normal.

Other than that the red, purple and green you see in the reverse is actually toning which is also common with the proofs due to the mint packaging (tissue paper). There is no corrosion or oxidation on this coin even know the picture looks like that may be the case. I think the scanner just reflects the light in a strange manner.

There are some "blotches" on the obverse. I am guessing this is toning as well.

 

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Are you sure thats a proof? Look at the dentils at 3:00 and 9:00 obverse for starters. I am now just starting to pay close attention to these.......

 

My scanner does not do much justice to this coin. I can not get the picture to look the same color or anything.

The fields look much differently when you hold the coin; they are mirror like, and the toning is much more colorful.

I will check out the dentils more closely, but I think the scanner is playing a trick on us in the picture. Even gold coins come out looking darker than they really are on my scanner????

Check out this picture for comparison: http://www.indiancent.com/market/91p65rbpj.jpg
It is a nicer coin, but it also reveals a striking weakness.

 

I rotated your photos so we don't have to crane our necks to look at them.

The coin does not look like a Proof coin to me. The strike is weaker than I would expect for a Proof (in more areas than just the first three feather tips).

 

I'm sure it looks better in a photo, most scanners don't work well with coins.

You can thank Markh for these:

The top photo are the dentils of a Proof IHC, the bottom are the dentils of a regular circulated IHC:

 

I'm sorry to say my first thought was not a proof. Strike not strong enough and rims not square enough.

I'd grade it roughly 64.

 

Well... I may be wrong, but I wish I could get a proper picture for you all to look at. The reflective feilds is what made me believe it was a proof. Also like many proof IHC it is toned purple, red, blue, and green which is said to be caused by the tissue paper that the coins were packaged in from the mint.

Did anyone check out the link I posted to the 1891 IHC proof coin. It also has a week strike.

Rick Snow has a book on IHC, but it does not really talk about how to distinguish the difference.

I did find out in an article about the early 1890's and that they are notorius for weak strikes in bussiness and proof strikes. If I can get a better picture I will try, the problem seems to be that the scanner light takes alot away from what the visable eye can see.

If it is not a proof what explains the toning? Is this common throughout the series proof or otherwise?

 

The dentils do look like the bottom picture..... My question would be is this the same for all years? If so then I would have agree with you.

 

Check out this proof... The dentils on this one do not look like the bottom pic...

 

Another 1891 proof IHC.... having a hard time finding pics of the 1890.

 

Fianally a pic of a 1890 pr from http://www.indianheads.org/Newmismatistcollection.html

 

proof?

It's not unheard of for proof pieces to be put into circulation. It's not possible for me to tell from the scan, but given the numerous contact marks, this coin would be a maximum of PR-60. If I am really seeing wear, I'd probably assign PR-50.

 

The coin pictured in #12 is a PR65. Notice the "wear" on the first three feathers. This coin does not appear to be struck well either.

 

Not sure on that, ask markh, he's good with IHC's. I posted a proof that I thought I had, and it turned out to be a circ.

 

I am by far not an expert. With the pictures you posted I agree you can have weakness in the dentils in spots on proof coins. The difference between your post and the posted examples is looking completely around the rim. Look at the spots where they are not weak and see how square they are. In your example even in the strong areas it does not look square enough. That does not mean anything and is just my opinion. Try joining the fly-in forum and posting pictures there. Much better experts than me over there.

 

I sent the pictures to Richard Snow. He has agreed to tell if it is a proof.

 

I would have to say his word is the "Law"

 

The Law will be layed down one way or another....

Interesting side topic.... Richard Snow will personally grade (copper) and sign your slab if you use DGS signature series grading. It costs a whopping $25. That is not BS.

Considering he is the "LAW" sounds like a sweet deal to me.

 

Yes - he would know for sure.

I did find that interesting when I saw that on the DGS web site, but at the same time Rick's web site says:

I wonder if you can get the photo seal on a DGS coin that he graded? I wonder what he has against holders? While I understand why he would do this, I still think it is kind of funny - still buy the coin not the holder.