Help-my copper's are "rusting"

This is my first post to this forum. I have been collecting about a year (higher grade Lincolns/Indians/Morgans etc). Live about 10 min from the beach (avid surfer), and concerned about several Lincolns that developed spots that looked like rust. This 1921 and 1923 absolutely did not have these spots when I bought them about 4-5 months ago. I keep all my coins in a safe with about 4 dessicants; all nongraded coppers are in 2x2 Intercepts in Intercept box's. They were then placed in Ziplocks surrounded by modern pennies to take the oxidizing/sulfer/moisture hit before my numismatic coins. I recently took them out of the Ziplock due to reading about PVC. Then started reading posts about Ziplock's not having PVC (read some convincing posts on "Coin People" forum), so now box's are back in the Ziplock (used Glad, Johnson and Johnson, and Hefty brands) with the pennies surrounding the box's. I had been using petroleum on the the copper's (Indians/Lincolns) and recently started using "Coin Care" secondary to the solvent properties. Use a microfiber cloth to wipe off excess. Have placed some lower grade corroded Lincolns in the the Vaseline jar for extended periods with decent results (sent a 1912 MS 64 red to PCGS with petroleum on it after being wiped by with microcloth and it came back with that grade, i.e. no problems with the vasoline). Recently bought a corrosion inhibitor product that neutralizes the air also. The humidity is never less than 55% and not more than 60% (can't get it any lower than that in my safe). Help with any advice to stop the RUST!!!!!!!! Much appreciated if anyone can help. Sorry so long of a post. This forum is insane ("good"for the old cats).

 

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Copper doesn't "rust" so to speak. Most corrosion is "verdigris" (bronze disease) or pvc damage from storage in the older pliable plastic coin flips. Verdigris is greenish corrosion and pvc is greenish with a "gummy" look. I have read that verdigris can spread from coin to coin so it's a good idea to isolate the affected coins.

Be careful of the commercial coin cleaners, protectants and dips, they can damage coins. If you place your coins in ziplock bags make sure there is a dessicant or drying agent in the bags, because the ziplock bag will trap moisture inside the bag and the inside of the bag is suceptable to condensation when there are changes in temperature. Moisture, light and sudden changes in temperature can be harmful to coins.

PVC is easily cured in most cases with a dip in acetone and a rinse in distilled water. Verdigris is harder to eliminate and in most cases has damaged the surface of the coin.

Some people try to scrape the verdigris from the coin with a toothpick (ouch) or with a q-tip dipped in mineral oil or olive oil, followed by a rinse or soak in distilled water. Some people soak coins in mineral oil or olive oil, followed by a rinse or soak in distilled water. Olive oil is mildly acidic and can lighten the coin. Never heard of coating a coin in vaseline....leaving any coating of oil or substance on a coin can ruin it over time, which is why people rinse or soak in distilled water. Personally I wouldn't attempt this with any coin of any value. If you must, practice on coins with very low value.

General rule of thumb dont mess with the coins especially if they are valuable. There are professional coin restoration services out there, leave it to them. Even gently rubbing a coin with a microfiber cloth can create small scratches lowering the coins value.

From the photo, it looks like verdigris on the reverse, not sure what is on the obverse, might be pvc.

 

Good point The vaseline and coin care could have caused the spotting.

 

Couple of links

http://www.collector-antiquities.com/89/

http://www.ncscoin.com/news/enews/2006/December/article3.asp

 

Harryj,
Thanks for the reply. I have put on vasoline because fats or oil have covalent bonds (they have a strong attraction for each other) and chemical reactions like mosture or sulfur damage are ionic reactions (unequal charges with the stronger ions reacting with weaker ones). Oil based substances would repel things like water (H2O) and sulfur (oil and water don't mix, right?). I read this also from Q David Bowers re: conservation in "Experts Guide to Collecting and Investing in Rare Coins", chapter 31 on conserving your coins. He referenced Neatsfoot oil or mineral oil (vasoline to my knowledge is not much different). However, good advice from both you and GDJMSP. I do keep dessicants in the Ziplock bags. I will isolate those two coins (they were right next to each other); remove soak in acetone and then distilled water. Got the idea for modern pennies to "take the hit" from Weimar White's book on Coin Chemistry (pg 46-47). He suggests using only modern untoned coins and replace as they tone. His arguement is convincing so I would be hard pressed to abandon at this time. I have never used distilled water, so I will try that and let you guys know how that works. I still would like to understand exactly why many people feel oil based products will harm coins (on a chemical level). I have put coin Care and/or vasoline on modern pennies and compared them to pennies that have nothing and put them in my kitchen. The oil protected the one set and the untreated pennies deteriorated over time (spots, etc).
Thanks so much for anyone's advice

 

I have used mineral oil, olive oil and WD-40 on corroded pocket change pennies. The WD-40 worked the best, however it stripped the natural patina from the coin.

It may make sense to provide a moisture barrier for a coin, however many people frown on it. With any moisture barrier remember you are also trapping whatever moisture is in the coin inside as well.

 

Well said and I couldn't agree with you more.

I do feel there are exceptions to this rule however:

One being treasure hunters that clean their finds.

And an example for the other would be the collector with a highly corroded coin that has it professionaly restored. If I had a 1909 S VDB that had a bad case of verdigris I wolud rather have it restored than watch it gradually deteriorate. Just my thoughts though.

 

For one, I see your posted coin is in a Dansco, already a bad idea for BU copper ( or any coin for that matter ), AND, living by the sea it is a war you cannot win.

It is written in several books, dont even collect copper if you live in FL, etc.

I am in AZ and am lucky, I would sell my entire collection if I moved to a humid ocean community.

 

Well to Arizona Jack, Harryj, and the administrator: I completely understand the argument of not altering coins from their original state. However, since I clearly don't live in an ideal area (I(I will not sell my collection at this time- I have a lot of time, energy, and passion put into these), I need to create the best environment I can. 80% or so of the US population lives within driving distance of a coast, and many states a very humid (the entire southeastern states), so I can't be the only one with this issue. I do not have my coins in Dansco albums (silver coins I do, but not copper). My coppers are slabbed or in Intercept as I previously described. As far a never touching the face of the coin (which I have done only if absolutely necessary) how does anyone get coins in Airtite's/Dansco's, or TPG holders- the rubber in PCGS and NGC fits snug around the coin and coin could not be placed there by touching the edges only. Whatever device used (plastic tongs?) would have to be small and therefore cause pressure/friction with the risk of that object slipping/scratching. Distrubted pressure on the face of the coin would be the only safe way I could imagine to get the coins into the holders/albums (with a cloth?). Consequently, I have a 8 power lope and have never seen the slightest hairline from application of any oil product. Oil can also be removed with Acetone by dipping without touching the face of the coin. I am curious if any of you guys have seen those coins that have been shalached or had finger nail polish before and after? I am in my 30's and have only done this for a year+, but inherited a 1909 S IHC and 1908 S (both EF 40) and am not about to part with my coins. I do not have your wisdom or experience, but I still don't see how oil (vaseline, olive, Coin Care), is problematic on a chemistry level. Covalent bonds repel ionic charges. And would both repel outside contaminants and contain mositure within, but do coins actually have moisture trapped in them? That seems an odd concept to me as you could start to see immediate damaged if so and are they that porous? Sorry to be a pain, but I have a lot invested and I am not convinced I am on the wrong track. I did fail to mention that I bought additionall shelves by the safe manufacturer that were made of particle board and carpet over them (sulfer heaven) and they smelled lilke new car. About the same time I took Intercept box's out of the Zip Locks fearing PVC which was a bad move in retrospect. Now have stainless steel shelves and Ziplock bags again and will convert all coin to Airtites and/ or send TPG's (NCS for these correded ones).
Thanks for any help

 

Almost everyone touches coins at one time or another, wash your hands good and dry them. You can purchase coin handling gloves, however I have found that your hands aren't as agile with them on and I usually wear one on my left hand and free up the right. There are many air tight holders on the market to protect your coins, I use them on my more valuable ones.

Not being an expert by all means, but I think most metals are porous to some extent, they will absorb some moisture and and elements of their immediate environment.

As far as "oiling " coins goes; many people do it. I recently purchased a Flying Eagle from a reputable numismatist in my area and as he was searching for my coin he oiled several coins with mineral oil and gently wiped them. He is a contributor to the Redbook and Blue book. This wasn't a thousand dollar coin, however he oiled it and told me it wouldn't harm the coin. His website is the link below. I would however, stay away from the commercial coin dips, but thats just my thoughts. Seeing any of my coins with developing corrosion would make me think the same way you do.

http://www.wspcoin.com/

Welcome to the forum and I would love to see pics of your 1909 S and 1908 S IHC's post pic's if you can.

Harry

 

No misunderstanding, I feel the same way, a sad thing to watch a coin slowly deteriorate.

 

First, welcome to the forum! I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as Harry and GDJMSP.
I do know that you should never touch the surface of your coins though. And I would stay away from the commercial dips. As for the oiling, I'm not really smart enough to tell you why its bad, but I have ALWayS been told not to do it.
Anyway, I too would love to see some pics of your coins.

 

The best advice has been given repeatedly: don't put anything on your coins. I agree with this and have never coated any of my coins - there are a lot of safe airtight options to use instead.

However, if one was inclined to use mineral oil like is used in the metal industry, one should use a high grade oil that is pure and then only a very minute quantity. Baby oil would be problematic as it has added ingredients. Vaseline, which is petroleum jelly, and similar to mineral oil, probably should not be used either. Vaseline is not highly refined enough and contains some impurities. There is a highly refined white petroleum jelly that is used by the pharmaceutical industry that contains no impurities but still there could be problems. The fact that excess needs to be wiped off should be a warning sign, it suggests quantity and difficult removal. If there are unwanted impurities (or anything else that could harm the coin) the greater the quantity the more probable there will be damage. And while the micro-cloth may not be appear to damage the coin, under 200x magnification there may be evidence otherwise and is not worth the risk.

 

Of course the coins come from the mint coated with a "foreign substance" machine oil full of all kinds of contaminants. So removing the original contaminated oil and replacing it with a layer of clean pure oil is bad?

 

You say your ungraded coppers are in 2x2 intercepts. I have never used the intercept shield product, but from the pictures it looks like the pennies are in an album of some type as well.

If you have any coins of any value I would get them out of the album. I have seen coins you would not expect to corrode, develop problems in albums.

I had a 1943 steel penny rim get eaten away on about 1/4 of the coin.... now worthless.

40% silver nickels..... green porous surface developed....

copper coins destroyed.... including 1909 SVDB ouch!!!

Virtually an entire 20th century type set minus the gold was ruined.

I cannot confirm albums are the main cause, but coins I kept in other
places were fine for 20+ years.

We had a refinery in our town which I'm sure had much to do with this... but only the coins in albums suffered.

 

Not to disagree with GDJMSP, because I agree with virtually all he's said in this thread -- but EAC/copper collectors have been using oils and other products (Care and Blue Ribbon are two examples) to protect their raw copper for a very long time and they are commonly bought and sold in this condition. However, one should be familiar with their use and consider experiementation on cheap coins before attempting it with any coins of value, and remember the marketplace in general doesn't subscribe to the EAC credo. All IMHO...Mike