Which Would Be Harder To Counterfeit?

That's just adding to the cost. Not a very efficient way of doing things. There should be better security measures to U.S. Bullion.

I hear you.

I think the US Mint would be wise to develop and incorporate some sort of authentication technology or details on the American Gold bullion similar to what the Canadians did, or even better if possible. There has to be SOME effort shown by the US Mint to keep up with the Counterfeiters. Otherwise they're just leaving us all hanging in the wind by saying "It's not our problem."

Eventually it WILL be their problem when no one wants to buy U.S. Bullion and goes to buy Canadian simply because there are security measures in the Canadian Bullion.

 

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Tungsten has the same, or a tad higher SG of gold.

 

If you are worried about titanium, you use an ultrasound velocity /thickness device as the velocity of ultrasound through gold is 3200 and titanium is 6100 meters/sec. A cheap ultrasonic depth meter on Amazon can be under a few hundred. The biggest problem is a gold coin is not completely flat with the devices, so a transducer fluid has to touch the device and your coin. Mineral oil works with mine, and I clean it off with acetone. Silver by the way has a transmission of 3600, copper 2800. Jim

one like this
https://www.amazon.com/Ultrasonic-T...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=2WZ2SZY6ZN7C21WF1TXT

 

Owning fake/counterfeit coins, even US/Can Mint bullion coins is still possessing counterfeit currency which is illegal.


canadian ==> https://canadiancoinnews.com/gold-maple-leaf-among-most-counterfeited-bullion-coins/

I can't find the article showing fake DNA Canadian Maple bullion coins ...

fake/counterfeit coins has been an evolution. Not simply "one" design and content type. It has been evolved over time covering not just bullion but also many US coins - just look at the threads of the counterfeit early US copper coins worth BIG money (and copper is cheaper than gold).

 

Apart from buying a device for a few hundred dollars, how can you tell if a Gold Maple Leaf is fake if it is filled with tungsten or titanium so the weight and measurements are the same?

Also, XRF guns seem to not always be precise or able to detect fakes.

 

The "real" xrf analyzers you'll have to add a couple zeros to your "few hundred dollars"

There's been many threads about them on CT .... But they still can be fooled. That's why the counterfeiters are designing them the way they do.

 

Seems like we might need a microscopic serial number or something like that on the coins.

 

The Canadian Bullion DNA coins have those. Dealers of the coins have the machines that are able to read the special microscopic engraving.

 

When they talk about China stealing our technology, our copyrights and "intellectual property theft" from China, I always thought it meant that they don't crack down on those making fake expensive pocketbooks and I have to admit that I never really cared much about that.

But after everything I've read about fake coins and bullion since starting this post, I'm learning more and more about how detrimental all this counterfeiting is for Bullion, Numismatics and other expensive items.

It is legal in China to create identical "replicas" of anything in the world, including Gold & Silver coins, as long as the company creating it sells it as "replicas". But there are no Chinese laws governing the goods after that. So the buyer can resell all those identical "replicas" to unsuspecting buyers and flood the markets with fake items.

Also, Chinese Bullion & Numismatic Counterfeiters have their own "Mint" operations which function completely legitimately in China as a real mint would while creating "replicas" of any PM coin and this is completely legal in China.

Plus, they've gotten REALLY good at creating fakes of anything that is valued by Numismatists and Bullion Collectors and Stackers to the point where dealers are fooled. PCGS and NGC holders and their stickers and the correct content of the holder and weight and measurement of the coin in the holders have all been perfected. So if we go to coin shows without thousands of dollars of detection equipment, or without buying from dealers who have the mega equipment, we won't ever know what we're buying because this stuff is flooding the market.

So, we're basically screwed. They're killing a hobby and an age-old hands-on investment (PM) and there's nothing anyone can do about it because the U.S. can't control what happens in China no matter how much it effects the U.S.

This isn't political, it's historical and it is now an important part of Numismatics and Bullion collecting.

 

No they haven’t.

 

Yes, they have.

This video was from 3.5 years ago. I don't know about you, but other than the bubbles in the holographic sticker (which only needs slight adjusting to get right), I wouldn't be able to tell the difference in the quality of the black ink used on a printed NGC label or the extremely slight color variation of the clear plastic (which, incidentally, can also be caused by lighting exposure).

 

PCGS has articles on fake gold slabbed coins going back to at least 2008. The article lists some examples, and examples that come up Valid in PCGS searches. Here is one such article ==> https://www.pcgs.com/news/counterfeit-pcgs-holders

in 2015 PCGS apparently released a new and improved holder to help fight counterfeiting ==> https://www.pcgs.com/news/PCGS-Introduces-Superior-New-Holder

When I was collecting pre33 gold, I read a lot of counterfeit pre33 gold coins such as Indians.
==> https://www.cointalk.com/threads/counterfeit-5-gold-indian.297710/
==> https://www.pcgs.com/news/Indian-Head-Quarter-Eagles-King-Of-The-Counterfeit-Gold-Coin

Then when I was getting into collecting early US Silver/copper coins the work of Jack D Young started having very informative posts ==> https://www.cointalk.com/search/4700112/

A year or more ago AliExpress was choke full of fake stuff. I was using it for research until most of it was pulled. I was trying to find specific identifiers of the fake stuff vs real stuff for when I went buying.

For a "generalist" just buying gold it's easy to buy fake gold/silver coins/bars etc.
Even for someone well rounded in coins (aren't coin shops supposed to be ?) they'll buy fake stuff too.

This is why it's so important to buy from a well established seller.

not to be political, but China considers it a good thing to make copies of stuff.
Look at these trucks from 2012 ==> https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2...ore-on-the-faux-f150-and-its-chevy-precursor/

 

No they haven't, if it was perfected there would be no difference. If someone wants to be extra careful stick to new slabs only, if you really want to be super duper extra careful stick to PCGS Gold Shield with TrueView only as those high high resolution pictures that would be essentially impossible to match a fake too

None of these efforts are anything new. They have been going on for many many years. The sky isn't falling though it can seem like it is when people first learn of it.

 

How small are the numbers ? Must be in microns, or fractions of a millimeter.

The security thread and changing ink looks in the $100 bills and other bills seems to have stopped alot of counterfeit currency....I think.

 

The original issue of the article is now almost 20 years old, although it seems to have been extensively updated fairly recently - in China, presumably, they now may have more sophisticated operations with more modern equipment, etc. than the older presses with which they're working in these photos.
My worry is about ancient coins - not something that has been copied in great quantity in China yet (we believe) but given the success of all the other areas, it can't be too long before these are also being turned-out on a mass-production basis.
https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/chinese-coin-counterfeiting-ring-4071202

 

Just as a quick aside, I think Jim mistyped "titanium" where he meant "tungsten", and I'd like to nip this in the bud before it spreads.

Tungsten's density is 19.25 g/cc, compared to gold's 19.3 g/cc; that makes it useful (dangerous) as a substitute for gold. You'd need excellent equipment and lab technique to distinguish gold-covered tungsten from pure gold based on specific gravity alone. Coin gold (90+% gold, balance copper) is probably less dense, so you might be able to get an exact match on density for a tungsten-stuffed gold coin.

Titanium's density is under 5 g/cc, less than gold, silver, copper, even iron. It's not useful in counterfeiting.

 

Ancients and early copper are probably the most susceptible given the surface issues many have and how they can be used to hide imperfections in the fake

 

Thanks Jeff!! Knowledgeable editors are good to have around!! Always happy to be corrected. Jim

 

Thank you for all the great links!

That's a problem because we can no longer buy at coin shows now unless it's from an established dealer's booth/table.

And we can't buy from our fellow collectors, because they may have been inadvertently and unknowingly scammed with Chinese counterfeits.

And we can't buy from coin shops because they have been unknowingly scammed even though they "should" know better.

We can only buy from a handful of dealers who can afford the very expensive testing equipment, or risk buying counterfeits because China keeps flooding the market with them.

The sky IS falling on this hobby because China doesn't let up with all their counterfeits and they keep flooding the market with them.

I wanted to buy a Sitting Liberty and started reading about all the excellent fakes out there. We're talking about a $150 coin - not a fortune of money - and yet China is busy making all these fantastic fakes.

I'm not so worried about losing $150 as I am turned off by the prospect of buying something that is fabricated and bummed out that the hobby has been infected and contaminated en mass. There used to be fun in the hunt but no longer. Gotta buy only from a big dealer otherwise you can wind up with a fake because coins trade hands multiple times and unless the person you are buying from can prove to you that he bought it from a big dealer, you risk buying a fake. It's hardly a "hunt" when there are only a handful of dealers you can buy from.

China is ruining a hugely fun part of the hobby - the hunt.

 

Not true.

No it's not. It's just fine and again this is nothing new.

Stick to graded coins then.

You're proving my point about hysteria when people first discover something that is nothing new.