Help with attributing a plain jane Vespasian

This is a very plain, low denomination, not-well-struck Vespasian, but there's something about it that I like (including how cheap it is).



The problem is that the only attribution I can find is on Wildwinds that says it's RIC 728. In their description, however, the obverse says: "IMP CAESAR VESP AVG COS V CENS". On the coin above that I'm trying to attribute, the obverse says "IMP CAESAR VESP AVG PM TP COS V CENS". Everything else about it matches Wildwinds, including the reverse. The only difference is the "PM TP" in the obverse legend.

Is this much ado about nothing, considering that the coin above is so low quality and low denomination?

 

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The obverse legend on your coin actually reads: IMP CAES VESP AVG P M T P COS V CENS; it's a rare variant of the normal obv legend which reads CAESAR for this issue. It is unrecorded with a left facing portrait and the PAX AVGVST rev. A most wonderful find!

Not listed in the upcoming RIC II.1 Addenda.

Attribute it as RIC 728 var.

Congrats!

 

Actually, I think the obverse legend is: IMP CAES VESP AVG PM TP COS V CENS. The reverse figure is PAX standing left leaning on column, with caduceus and branch. The revers legend is PAX AVGVST. The addition of the TP makes this a rare legend variation for the type. Here is the problem, this legend variation should make this coin RIC 727. However, that type has a right facing bust and yours is left facing. It also cannot be RIC 728 because that type does not have the rare TP variation in the legend. What is interesting is that the combination of the left facing portrait and TP legend variation does occur but not with this reverse type. It occurs with the AEQVITAS AVGVST SC, PROVDEN, and VICTORIA AVGVST SC types.

Yours is not listed in RIC. (David, you beat me to it, you posted as I was typing).

That is a great find!

 

Wow, thank you both for your help! It would be my only ancient coin, because I admire Vespasian so much, so maybe I'll grab it while I can.

Thank you!

(EDIT: I just bought it, so I'm pretty happy)

 

That's what you think!

 

As much as I respect the fact that this coin is an unlisted and unusual variety for this issue, I want to ask if a mild cleaning is out of the question. The last thing I want to do is damage the coin in any way, but I'm curious to know if it looks like it could be just lightly cleaned without damaging it. If it were in better shape I wouldn't even be asking. I'm not familiar enough with patinas and what kinds of patina can handle cleaning.

 

It's perfectly fine as is. Don't risk damaging it.

 

Okay, will do - thank you. Man, I'm glad you're here!

 

You won't damage the coin by soaking it in distilled water and then scrubbing it with a toothbrush and dish-washing liquid and then rinsing it again in distilled water. So if you want to try this, go ahead. You might get off a little loose dirt somewhere, but I doubt that you'll notice much difference. The coin looks like it has already been cleaned pretty thoroughly. Actually, it looks like it has been zapped with electrolysis within the past few years or so.

Do NOT use anything harsher, however, or you might damage it, as it appears that the patina has already been removed, leaving the bare metal exposed. Anything acidic, like lemon juice or a cola soft drink, will eat into the surface and leave a bunch of tiny pits and holes. Yuck.

And do NOT use tap water, since most tap water has been chlorinated and, although not likely, could initiate bronze disease. Non-chlorinated well or spring water is probably okay, but I don't think it would accomplish much and is probably just and excuse to handle and admire your coin. Which is perfectly justified, but you can do that without the water, anyway.

Getting back to electrolysis: judging by the color of the exposed surface on the higher-relief areas of your coin, I'd say that if your coin was subjected to it, it's been several years since this happened, so what I'm about to say is unlikely in your case, but there is a very slight chance that your coin has quite recently been cleaned with electrolysis, meaning that the surfaces have just recently been exposed to air and humidity after being covered with a protective patina for centuries. Sometimes--not often, but sometimes--newly-exposed surfaces will react with the moisture in the air and experience bronze disease (BD), the bane of ancient bronze coins. Two important things to know about BD: A) it is easy to treat, and B) left untreated, it will eventually destroy your coin.

If your coin does develop BD, you will notice a bluish-green powder start to build up on different places on the surface. This power will be bright in color and can easily be brushed off with your hand. If you notice this happening, it's ding-ding-ding, ah-ROOOOO-gah! time. There are several threads here explaining how to treat BD, or PM me and I'll explain what to do.

For now, what should you do to keep your coin safe? You'll like this part: for the next six months of so, look at it often. Pick it up, think about how cool it is to handle a coin minted 2000 years ago when people wore togas and spoke Latin. Basically, just leave you coin out somewhere where you will see it often. Oh, and check to make sure there is no blue-green power growing out of the coin. If you don't see any BD developing within the next 4-6 months, then you can assume that it's not going to happen.

Isn't it nice when the solution to a potential problem compels you to do something you'd want to do anyway?

 

Hey, I think mine is kinda like yers, @Numisnewbiest ... It is one of my favorite coins, even though from the Imperial Period:

I do not clean any of my coins... I like to leave them alone, as, for me, the patina, crud, etc. is part of the History.

(oh, wait... mine is Felicitas standing...)


RI Vespasian 69-79 CE AE Dupondius Felicitas stdg caduceus cornucopia sinister left

 

I was assuming the coin is copper. How to tell if it's bronze or copper?

 

Bronze is a mixture of copper and tin. The tin makes the copper a little harder. All imperial asses are bronze. That's how we know.

 

Thanks very much...and that shows how little I know!

 

great answer

 

Nice find. Please don't clean it - it looks fine.

 

Sorry to keep adding talk about this coin, but I thought this was pretty cool: it's getting added to Wildwinds.

Since my first search for attribution was at Wildwinds, without success, I thought I'd email the site manager (Dane) and offer the coin for listing, in case anyone else ever finds one and looks it up. He did an extensive search for it elsewhere, to include Cohen, BMCRE, Coin Archives Pro, and old lists of "not in Cohen" (Chaix, Belfort, Schodt, Gohl, Gnecchi
(Vatican collection articles).

He is going to list it as being a "RIC 727-728 var" as follows:

"RIC 727 var and Cohen 308 var (both head right); RIC 728 var and Cohen 309 var and BMCRE 702* var (all head left but with CAESAR)."

 

Congrats on the WildWinds listing! Btw Dane is female.

 

Yikes - thank you for that.

 

Being the only coin I own, it's all I have to ask questions about (probably a good thing for everyone else that I only own one coin)...so here I go:

Seeing that this coin is a different die from RIC 727 and RIC 728, does the obverse legend appear to end in "CEN" rather than "CENS"? I don't see any trace of an ending letter "S". I see patina, but not even a remnant of a letter. I only ask because I want to nail down everything about this coin correctly.

 

It certainly appears to end that way, but there's plenty of space after the N for another letter, so it's also possible that some crud had accumulated in the die when the coin was struck, preventing the metal from flowing into the S. Filled die errors like this are very common.