Hammer Time!

So, what would you do if a new collector stated that he/she would like to have such information? Would you tell them, "Tough! We don't do things that way. You'll have to go somewhere else."

Chris

 

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But that information isn't reliable. It's a skewed sample and the sample size is much too small to have any validity. It's basically just a marketing ploy. RIC, old and inaccurate as it is, is still a better source for that sort of information.

 

I think you’re misunderstanding about the relevance of TPG population data for ancients. The volume of slabbed ancients is a teeny tiny fraction of extant ancient coins and so TPG pop data is not meaningful. As for the label, due to size constraints it carries only a small amount of information about the coin and the label isn’t necessary for maintenance of that info. As for the assigned grade, it’s mainly just a matter of curiosity.

I break them out too and keep the label in the flip just like I do for other related auction ephemera.

Doesn’t NCG take pictures of all slabbed ancients? Isn’t that sufficient, or am I not understanding your concern?

 

So, you just tell them to do it my way or take the highway.

Chris

 

If someone wanted to know the population of graded coins, what would they do? If all of you remove them from the slabs, then the TPG grades are meaningless. Are they going to call all collectors to see if they kept their inserts?

Again, I have no concern for the TPG. They could all be run by Philistines for all I care. And, if the insert is just meaningless paper to you, why can't you just photocopy it?

Chris

 

Oh, so you intentionally skew the sample just to prove that you don't like the TPG's methods.

Chris

 

Chris, I appreciate your perspective as a Modern coin collector. I used to be one, but chose 30 years ago to move off Modern US coinage, and pursue my passion for Ancient History as a hobby. Modern coin collecting was becoming too commercial with all the grading systems, the marketing 101 ploys with plastic tombs, pricing sheets, etc etc. For me, it migrated from an avocation, or hobby, into a commercial business approach. Everyone was worried about “what is it worth?”, vs. the WOW-Factor of truly holding a piece of history.

Ancient coins became a means for me to touch and hold ancient history. For me, that is awesome stuff. I don’t have to wear white gloves to hold my coins, rather I can enjoy touching them and putting them into other peoples’ hands so they can appreciate the coin’s history.

I chuckle with all the rarity figures for modern coins, where “thousands” of coins minted can be considered scarce or rare. I have several Ancients from Civilizations that only a handful are known... meaning under 20 specimens. This is not through “census data” with a profit-making plastic tomb encapsulating firm, rather through known museum coin surveys, Ancient Auctions, notable reputable forums, etc.

In no way am I trying to convert you. Rather, I no longer only look through the window of Modern coins perspective. I enjoy the the incredible passion of Ancient Coin collecting without the glove-holding shackles of the Modern Coins rules, restrictions, marketing approach that is no longer a hobby to me.

Best,
Brian

 

They can ask the TPG for that information. The TPG keeps track of that, not the collectors.

Yes! The grades are not particularly meaningful in the first place, or at least not in the same all-powerful way grades matter for US modern coins . It is interesting to see the grade assigned by the TPG but it’s really little more than a curiosity.

 

Ancients Grades for me:

- I like it.
- I am BUYING it.
- Not interested at this moment.

Otherwise, numbers, letters, reports, price sheets, Moderns rules about coins, etc as applied to Ancients are meaningless to me.

The only excitement with Moderns to me are Gold Coins (larger collection than my Ancients), but I really do not ascribe Modern collecting rules to them.

 

A beginner ancient coin collector trying to start out by researching population grades would be just as misguided as a US collector taking seriously a reading of “Strike it Rich with Pocket Change.”

Grades ARE meaningless for ancient coins. I respect NGC for their ability to spot a fake and to note overt tooling, smoothing and other trickery. Ancient coins are unique handmade objects so it is better to just use your eyes in terms of beauty and artistry.

Assigning a grade to an ancient coin is just as silly as assigning one to a painting or a sculpture.

Also if you bought the slab you should be able to keep the label. After all you paid for it!

 

Not at all. What I'm saying is that the sample itself is skewed because only a tiny subset of ancient coins ever get sent in to be graded and slabbed, and those tend to be high end and of unusual degrees of preservation. Most ancient collectors hate slabbed coins.

Are you new to ancients? You seem to be thinking about slabs the way most modern collectors do. That's fine if you are, but you should be aware that the situation is very different with ancient coins because each coin is unique.

 

Yes, but for shear enjoyment and satisfaction I like the hammer better.

 

LOL, yeah, the Hammer does have a definite primal satisfaction when busting a slab.

 

Aaron Berk has a couple of sweet 'hammer time' videos on Facebook.



Erin

 

If all Ancient collectors are loathe to encapsulate their coins via the TPG, then who is it that has these coins encapsulated? It doesn't make sense.

@gsimonel - I don't collect Ancients. I'm just trying to understand your methods.

Chris

 

I have a different view on slabs. Here are the benefits:
1/ coin is protected from oxidation/ tarnishing/ wear
2/ the coin is safer to handle/ admire
3/ coins are checked for flaws (details) ie: tooling/ improper cleaning/ smoothing/ repairs etc.
4/ fakes are weeded out.
5/ easy storage (NGC/PGGS have 20 coin boxes)
6/ those tiny coins like fractional Staters are real secure.
Example my 1870 California AV Fractional 25 cent coin is well protected in slab secure housing.

 

John, all great points.
Be honest with yourself regarding your postings: you are not a “run-of-the-mill” Ancients Collector. You are the only poster showing virtually ONLY Gold coins (with a few great AR’s thrown in). And your cool collection spans into the 20th C (do you have any in the 21st C yet?).

All of my Gold are NOT slabbed, I enjoy that part of my collection (more pieces than my Ancients Collection), and I am not concerned about slabbing or the Modern conventions of collecting. I love the feel of Gold, the specific gravity it has, and the resilience of that metal (yeah it is soft, but virtually chemically inert.) It took a greater Super-Nova to create that stuff!

 

The devil if I know why you 'darkside guys' would want to get something graded in plastic. I, modern fellow', don't submit nothing for encapsulation. If I want something 'graded' I buy it graded. I'm surprised at you guys.......you once told me that cleaning coins (ancients) was okay. I always was led (lead?) to believe that you folks wanted your coins in pure tactile condition.

I'm Gonna have another scotch.......

 

Mostly modern US coin collectors testing the ancient coin waters and a minority of auction houses who started out in US coins and moved into selling ancients. There are also a very few serious ancient collectors who like slabbing as a matter of course but they are not very common.

TPGs are a largely US phenomenon and the practice is more accepted in the collector community in the US (for modern stuff that is). Ancient coin collecting is more global for obvious reasons and the TPGs don’t have a stranglehold on foreign markets.

If you look through the records of the big auctions houses that specialize in ancient coins you will see that ALMOST ALL of their coins are sold un-slabbed. Harlan Berk even has a “crack out Monday” video on their homepage right now.

Don’t take my word for it either. Check out the ratio of slabbed vs un-slabbed coins at the big auctions for yourself below.

https://www.cngcoins.com/

https://nomosag.com/default.aspx?page=ucHome

https://www.romanumismatics.com/

http://arsclassicacoins.com/

https://www.hjbltd.com/#!/

This list could go on and on...

 

Slabbed ancients were created to gather in the untapped market of collectors who had no experience with ancients and felt comfortable with plastic around coins that could be ruined by human fingerprints. As such, they did the hobby a service in one sense but the same people who came to ancients that way brought their attitudes toward grading from moderns as well. The trend among traditional collectors of ancients has been away from using Sheldon letter grades (Fine and friends) realizing that the letters alone tell little about the coin's appearance. US slabs assume untouched and original surfaces as well as full and even strike. These are next to unknown with ancients. A small percentage of ancients left the mint in 'mint state' an being buried in dirt/water/chemicals doe not heal original issue problems. All ancients are 'Details' coins to some degree and the 'rules' of cleaning, handling etc. have to be adapted to coins excavated from the earth rather than secured in grandpa's sock drawer. We have ancients that were last cleaned before the Revolutionary War but we lack bank bags held in vaults for 2000 years.