Featured More on Grading & Grading Companies

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by GDJMSP, Jul 5, 2004.

  1. halfcent1793

    halfcent1793 Well-Known Member

    You're proposing what Early American Coppers already does. And we HAVE published our standards in the Grading Guide for Early American Copper Coins. The book received Book of the Year from the Numismatic Literary Guild in 2015.

    The real problem as I see it is in the infinite subdivision of levels of price at the uncirculated level. And for the most part, those only apply to modern coins. I'm not aware of any early copper coin that has been graded higher than MS67 by any of the "services," nor am I aware that any exist when graded by EAC standards. The coins are quite rare at MS65 and almost unheard of at higher grades.

    I would add that none of the "services" actually seem to understand coinage by hand using a screw press.
     
  2. Avatar

    Guest User Guest



    to hide this ad.
  3. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    thomas mozzillo likes this.
  4. Johndoe2000$

    Johndoe2000$ Well-Known Member

    furham likes this.
  5. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    they rarely do but they use a different system anyways. At that grade you’re really just saying this is the best
     
  6. mlov43

    mlov43 주화 수집가

    These are now dead links!
     
  7. Johndoe2000$

    Johndoe2000$ Well-Known Member

    Dead links, and Necro-Threads rising from the grave..... HAPPY HALLOWEEN !!! :vamp:
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
    Mainebill likes this.
  8. halfcent1793

    halfcent1793 Well-Known Member

    And it's carried in the early copper condition census as a MS60. As I noted, slabbers aren't very good at grading early copper. Plus, how can you grade a coin MS69 when there is nothing graded MS68 and only two coins have been graded higher than MS66?

    I have read the "definitions" that the ANA and PCGS use for the higher mint state grades, and I am unable to tell what distinguishes them. However, I'm quite willing to learn.

    Someone please explain to me how a coin struck in 1793 can possibly be equal in perfection to the finest modern coins struck with completely different technologies.
     
    Mainebill likes this.
  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Because it doesn't have to be equal in any way to modern coins. As a matter of fact, all coins are graded based on their own specific mintage for each given date and mint combination.

    In other words a coin minted in 1793 can be graded on a different basis than one minted in 1796 - just as an example.

    A well known example of this principle are the early S mint Morgan dollars. They are graded by tougher standards than other Morgan dollars, even those minted in the same years, but at different mints.
     
    wxcoin and Johndoe2000$ like this.
  10. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Agreed, as another example, early date Jefferson Nickels are graded with completely different standards than post war issues.
     
  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yeah I know, but that's because they're so old.
     
    Johndoe2000$ likes this.
  12. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

    Since I subscribe to Coin World magazine I may be able to access past issues if you would kindly let me know what date(s) issue they were published in. I'm not even sure if I can go back that far but it's worth a try. Thank you.
     
  13. Johndoe2000$

    Johndoe2000$ Well-Known Member

    Did they even make those back when @GDJMSP started this thread ???
    I don't mean Coin World, I mean magazines in general!!! ;) :D

    Couldn't resist. :bag:
     
    wxcoin likes this.
  14. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank


    nope, pre-printing press.

    Google: gutenberg printing press
     
    wxcoin and Johndoe2000$ like this.
  15. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    You seem like a very informed member so I look forward to a long discussion. I have a copy of the copper grading guide and also highly recommend it.

    halfcent1793, posted: "And it's [1793 cent MS-69] carried in the early copper condition census as a MS60. [IMHO both MS-69 and MS-60 are extremely STUPID grades for that coin.] As I noted, slabbers aren't very good at grading early copper. Plus, how can you grade a coin MS69 when there is nothing graded MS68 and only two coins have been graded higher than MS66?"

    You are showing an amount of :bucktooth: ignorance that surprises me! Coins have grades. There are many instances where a coin of one date/type is graded say MS-Something and the next closest coin is AU-Smething with no known graded coins in between! Try S-49 for example. It's a Large cent. :p

    "I have read the "definitions" that the ANA and PCGS use for the higher mint state grades, and I am unable to tell what distinguishes them. However, I'm quite willing to learn."

    I'll agree with you that both sources leave something to be desired. Nevertheless, there is a good chart in the ANA Grading Guide for silver dollars that is very helpful. BTW, I offer personal or group grading classes.

    "Someone please explain to me how a coin struck in 1793 can possibly be equal in perfection to the finest modern coins struck with completely different technologies."

    A very thoughtful question with an easy answer: IT CAN'T! I told you it was easy. That's why a grade of MS-69 on that coin is EXTREMELY :vomit: STUPID! It reminds me of a coin grading "roundtable" in the 1970's attended by some of the most knowledgeable, influential, numismatists/dealers at that time. The geniuses discussing the feasibility of a coin grading service at that table graded a "Photograde textbook XF 1794 Large cent from VF to AU :jawdrop: and they had good reasons for their opinions! That being the case, what's a poor :confused: collector to do?

    halfcent1793, posted: "You're proposing what Early American Coppers already does. And we HAVE published our standards in the Grading Guide for Early American Copper Coins...I would add that none of the "services" actually seem to understand coinage by hand using a screw press."

    LOL, I won't comment on the wacky coin grading being done by a very tiny number of copper specialists as it has no relation AT ALL to a coin's actual condition as expressed by the vast majority of knowledgeable numismatists. BTW, that EXTREMELY FINE 1794 cent was graded only VF by the EAC (Net Grading) standards. o_O:(
     
  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I got a good memory but danged if I can remember that much detail from that long ago ! My best suggestion is to search for articles written by John Maben, they're in there. Problem is, only paying subscribers of CW will be able to access them, and the links to them won't work if ya post them here. And copying and posting them here - that would be a copyright violation.
     
  17. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    It's a new morning and I'm not cranky! Look, I apologize to you as I know you must be a knowledgeable fellow. While I DO NOT change anything I wrote, I should have been more polite in expressing it. I don't think you are ignorant.

    Most of you know I teach grading and have been involved in the evolution of coin grading since the Wild West Days but decades after Doug was around. I am the sole author of the "true" Technical Grading System. It was based on Sheldon's strict definitions of individual grades back when MS meant NO TRACE OF WEAR FROM SLIDING FRICTION.

    Grading was extremely simple. Eye appeal and value had no influence on the coin's condition of preservation from when it dropped from the press. A splotchy brown MS coin with very few marks was graded EXACTLY the same as a "rainbow beauty!" A coin's strike did not influence its grade because that was the way it was struck (MS-65, flat strike). We wanted to be able to identify the coin in the future NOT put a price on it. Coin dealers can do that.

    The point of all this is to say I get REALLY CRANKY when someone who should know better writes this kind of silliness (this time I'm :angelic: being very charitable): "...slabbers aren't very good at grading early copper. Plus, how can you grade a coin MS69 when there is nothing graded MS68 and only two coins have been graded higher than MS66?"

    While TPGS' are important, over the years, coin dealers have screwed up the simple act of grading a coin and while doing it they have corrupted the grading standards. They want to be the only ones who can put a value on a coin. You need to be deeply involved in the market to get it right - all 65's are not worth the same.

    Sometime back in the dark ages, when we were using the "Technical" system, some as yet unidentified numismatist developed the "Net" way of grading to PUT A VALUE on copper coins. That system HAS NO RELATIONSHIP to the coin's actual remaining details.
    EAC "details" grading is EXTREMELY GOOD. They know how to grade. Unfortunately, it gets screwed up when they start taking off points with problems! The result is a technically graded cent - XF-45, obv. scratch and rim bump gets priced as a VF-20 by one EAC dealer and VF-30 by another because as paraphrased in the EAC Grading Guide - "Net" grading is complicated and very different from the way coins are graded by the major TPGS. That's why they can keep it. :D



     
    wxcoin, halfcent1793 and Mainebill like this.
  18. halfcent1793

    halfcent1793 Well-Known Member

    There's a lot here. First of all, I'm glad we agree that MS69 is a stupid grade for that Wreath cent. I believe I misstated, and it's called MS60+ in the CC. 60+ means a nice UNC coin with no original color, which that is.

    S-49 is a 1794 large cent. There are MANY other 1794 large cents in various grades from barely visible to very choice UNC for comparison. There are not a lot of Wreath cents in very choice UNC to compare the stated coin to. I'm guessing that you would agree that 1794 Liberty Caps and 1793 Wreaths aren't graded exactly the same.

    Re: IT CAN'T! (sorry, I don't know how to add the color). Grade is just someone's opinion. I think we would agree on this as well.

    Re: "wacky coin grading": Net grading was developed as a way to take into consideration the insults coins have received since they were struck. Nicks, porosity, cleaning, etc. make coins less desirable than a coin with the same amount of wear but no disruptions. EVERYONE does net grading. When the TPGs reduce grades of UNCs based on the amount of marks, they are net grading for defects exactly like we in EAC do. There's nothing "wacky" about it. Not everyone agrees on a coin's net grade, which is fine. Not everyone would agree the rank order of grades of a group of coins of the same variety set on a table in front of them. We drive different cars, marry different spouses, have different careers, etc. Of course our opinions of eye appeal are not all going to be exactly the same.

    I'm only saying, we should learn to grade for ourselves and trust our own knowledge.

    By the way, thanks for the compliment on the EAC Grading Guide. I'm one of the authors, though I'm sure you guessed that.

    Not wanting to get into a flame war, there's quite a bit that I have deleted from this response. None of it was personal, but I wanted to avoid annoying people any more than necessary.
     
  19. halfcent1793

    halfcent1793 Well-Known Member

    Obviously, I wrote my response before reading this. Thanks for the apology, and I'm glad I didn't try to flame you. I hope you didn't take anything I wrote personally, and if it came off that way, I apologize.

    We agree on a great deal.
     
  20. halfcent1793

    halfcent1793 Well-Known Member

    I would add that every year at the EAC convention we have what we call "happenings" for half cents, large cents and colonials (and sometimes early silver). People bring in coins of particular varieties and the members vote on a rank order of the top 5. There is almost never universal agreement on which is the finest, never mind the order of the next 4. We have even had times where more than 5 different coins were graded finest by someone at the event. And these are specialists in the series, not a bunch of average collectors who barely crack their Red Books.

    Opinions vary.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page