1798 DBC Dilemma (Ebay)

Howdy fellow coin peeps, :thumb:

I have run across an interesting auction on Ebay. The seller claims his beautiful Draped Bust Large Cent is a certain variety which is Extremely Rare (R-2) with less than 10 known (R-7 is less than 10 known), yet the variety he claims his cent to be is Common (R-1 @ CoinFacts). I cannot confirm it to be the variety he claims it to be so I'd appreciate some input from our Large Cent Guru's. :hail:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1798-SECOND-HAIR-STYLE-DRAPED-BUST-LARGE-CENT-NR_W0QQitemZ130219924941QQihZ003QQcategoryZ11947QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Ribbit

Ps: I messaged the seller and this is what I said:

http://coinfacts.com/large_cents/dr...8_large_cents/1798_large_cent_sheldon_174.htm

That says a 1798 S-174 is a R-1 because a R-1 is COMMON (see "R" stats below). Your listing is in error and misleading (violates Ebay policies). Here are the "R" stats:

R1 - Common
R2 - not so common
R3 - scarce
R4 - very scarce 76 -200 (all are estimated population)
R5 - rare 31-75
R6 - very rare 13-30
R7 - extremely rare 4-12
R8 - Unique or nearly unique 1-3 examples

For it to be EXTREMELY RARE it would have to be a R-7. You should correct your listing.

George

 

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Well everything I read says the coin is a R-2 and is common. And the mintage is published as 1,841,745 for all varieties. So I agree it is mis-leading and it is much nicer than mine. I got my S-174 for around $60. It is probably posted somewhere on this board. It will be interesting if you hear back from the seller.

 

I will let you know if he replies. :thumb:

I know with fraudulent listings, Ebay will pull them but would this listing be considered fraudulent? I think it qualifies but I'd like to hear what others have to say and why they do or don't think it qualifies.

Ribbit

Ps: I bought 2 1798's this weekend, along with about a dozen other large cents. I can't remember their Sheldon numbers but as soon as they get in, I'll post'em. Earlier today, I was the 2nd highest bidder for a 1828 C-2 Classic Half-Cent and it had a 180 degree rotated die. I have no clue what a rotated die does for rarity on a normally R-3 coin but I know it would have been an awesome coin to have but someone else knew that too and beat/bid me out of it.

 

I think it is certainly mis-leading, not sure if it is to get higher bids or just a seller who lacks information.

 

I think my message to him will fill us in on which one it is. If he does nothing, he's a con if he corrects it, then he just lacked the correct information. But there is a 3rd possibility - he got the Sheldon Number wrong. Did you check your book to make sure he got it right?

Ribbit

 

Yep - looks like a 174 to me.

Have you see the auctions by klondike - too bad he does not take paypal. There are 1 or 2 I might bid on.

 

Then this will be interesting to watch! :kewl:

Ribbit

 

Nothing to watch since I won't be bidding. I only use paypal on ebay - I never send cash.

 

What does that have to do with it? He accepts PayPal so how will PayPal protect you/me/anyone from his incorrect claims of rarity? I see peeps listing pocket change as rare so claiming he misrepresented the coin may not be grounds for a refund since it is the buyer's responsibility to confirm his claims. He claim it's a 1798 and that is true and it appears his claim it's a S-174 is also true, so the rest is on the buyer as far as I see and I don't think PayPal will do refunds for those reasons (my opinion).

Ribbit

 

A credit card used through PayPal will.

 

p.s. the coin is a corroded and likely recolored s-174, IMO.

 

I agree. The surface looks rough and the color is to consistant for the surface condition. It should have some discoloration and I couldn't find any.

Ribbit

Ps: The color should look more like my 1802 that shows corrosion also.

 

Personally, I think "fraudulent" is too strong a word for this one. It looks more like typical e-bay hyperbole - overblown. Unprofessional.

Inaccurate ? Sure.

But outright fraud ? Nah.

It just goes to show it doesn't matter what the dude says. Attribute it yourself, grade it yourself, do a little market research... the onus is on the buyer to do his own homework.

 

Would it still not be fraudulent if it is/was intentional?

Ribbit

 

Don't confuse the original post, with my post about klondike. I would not bid on the original posted auction for two simple things - the first is that I already have a S-174. Second if someone asks about an auction on this forum I will not bid against them - but only if I was not already watching an auction(so far I have not seen that happen). Well - except for Arizona Jack's auction. So I will not bid on either the original post or on the nicer large cents I saw offered by klondike.

Some people get worried about posting questions on auctions for fear that someone will see the auction and bid against them. I haven't seen it happened, but it could. In reality some forum users should post questions before purchasing - might same them some bad deals. Not sure about everybody else, but usually I determine what I am willing to bid - then bid and if I win great. Most times(not always) I do not even bother to wait until the last few seconds.

Yes - paypal accepts a credit card which offers buyer protection beyond just paypal protection. Everytime I have seen the credit card company coming into play(for problems), then paypal has supported the buyer. Granted I can't promise that everytime, but I always use it now(credit card and paypal) for large purchases(unless I have done business with a dealer). So I do not do business with sellers who do not accept paypal. If nothing else that should keep some auction prices down for others.

Ooops - now back to you toad - had to close my essay.

 

fraudulent - acting with intent to deceive

I'm not sure this seller is trying to deceive anyone. He may have made a simple misstatement of rarity. Unless he is a coin dealer or avid collector he would not be expected to know the rarity scales.

Like 900fine, I think the seller is "puffing" his coin. Realtors do it all the time when they describe a dump as "Needs TLC".

Personally I would forget it and move on.

 

Gotcha! :thumb:

I won't post an open auction in here if I'm going after the coin. Invites outside bidders into my auction to try and steal MY coin from me and all that does is drive up the price, which I don't want. I like to get my coins as cheap as possible. Earlier tonight I bid $70.00 on a Large Cent (snipe bid) and got it for $25.00 but I would have paid that much for it if the bids would have gone that high but they didn't so I got it for less than I was willing to pay and that's the way I like it.

I also won't post pics of coins with the auction still ongoing. I did that once and someone mentioned that fact and then the price soared, but I don't know if that had anything to do with the price soaring or not but I figured if I didn't do that again, I won't have that to blame for the price soaring. :hammer:

Ribbit

 

Here's a quote from the auction:

"I have been a collector for many years. I only purchase high grade or hard to find gold and silver coins."


Ribbit

Ps: I sent him a message explaining his errors so if he doesn't correct it, to me that is intentional misrepresentation and therefore, fraudulent from the getgo.

 

Would you buy anything from someone that intentionally misrepresents his goods in his favor?

Ribbit

 

Well it wasn't me - I have not bid on a large cent or won an auction since Jan 19th of this year. I might have bid on 1 or 2, but no more than that. I have not seen anything I really wanted (or at the price it was going for). I only have a few to go before I call the set complete - does not mean I won't add a few different varieties, but the set will be complete in my opinion. If you want to know I really only need a 1793, 1796 Draped bust, 1799, 1804, 1808, 1809, 1813. There are a couple of varieties I will add, but not many. So beware I am looking for those dates.