Suspicious group of chop mark t$ hit the market

saw this on another forum, members there tend to think they're fake since theyre all originating from Spain

What do y'all think?

1874 CC
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_id=114&ipn=icep&toolid=20004&campid=5338461489&mpre=https://www.ebay.com/itm/1874-CC-Silver-Trade-Dollar-Chinese-Chopmarks-1-United-States-Coin-Original/163722663581?hash=item261ea1969d:gJQAAOSwyOJc-UJQ

1876 S
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_id=114&ipn=icep&toolid=20004&campid=5338461489&mpre=https://www.ebay.com/itm/1876-S-Silver-Trade-Dollar-Chinese-Chopmarks-1-United-States-Coin-San-Francisco/163719385787?hash=item261e6f92bb:g:KBsAAOSw78hc9kAG

1874 S
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_id=114&ipn=icep&toolid=20004&campid=5338461489&mpre=https://www.ebay.com/itm/1874-S-Silver-Trade-Dollar-Chinese-Chopmarks-1-United-States-Coin-San-Francisco/163719373399?hash=item261e6f6257:g:nQAAAOSw7Phc9jyM

1875 S
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_id=114&ipn=icep&toolid=20004&campid=5338461489&mpre=https://www.ebay.com/itm/1875-S-Silver-Trade-Dollar-Chinese-Chopmarks-1-United-States-Coin-San-Francisco/163719377932?hash=item261e6f740c:g:mgYAAOSwnMRc9j8U

1874 S
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_id=114&ipn=icep&toolid=20004&campid=5338461489&mpre=https://www.ebay.com/itm/1874-S-Silver-Trade-Dollar-Chinese-Chopmarks-1-United-States-Coin-San-Francisco/163719363930?hash=item261e6f3d5a:g:lfkAAOSwEC5c9jr0

 

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Not my area of expertise, but 1) there appears to be more marks than I usually see and 2) the marks seem too crisp and clean.

The fact that the seller is from Spain - probably doesn't help!

 

Trade dollars are not my forte either, but in regards to your two points :
1) I agree. There are far more chops on most of these coins than we usually see on any coin, however, that in and of itself does not say fake to me. Instead, it says well-travelled. We know that U.S. Trade Dollars were used throughout that part of the world in trade. In fact, U.S. Trade Dollars were preferred by those merchants over other trade dollars. One of these has a "swastika" which implies a visit to the Nepal/Tibet area. We all know the chops were done by merchants to show the coins had been checked by them and were real silver. The more the coin travelled and was used in commerce, the more chops it would have.
Would a scammer use chops to try to fool people?
Of course a scammer would.
A scammer would do anything to further his scam.
Does that mean that these chops mean these coins are fake?
Not necessarily.
2) I disagree. These chops don't look any more crisp or clean than any other chops I've seen. We all know some guys like to clean their coins to, at least, some small degree, to regain luster or shine. Perhaps these were slightly cleaned, or even dipped?

I spent a few minutes investigating this guy, his pages, and his feedback.
He appears to be English or American, living in Spain, selling a variety of items. His most recent sales were various vintage cigarette lighters. His use of the word "petrol" to describe the lighter fuel, says to me that he's English. He had some sales of trade dollars some months back without any complaints or negative feedback. All positive remarks. In fact, his feedback is absolutely clean. No negatives or even neutrals.
I checked his own recent buys and the sellers he's bought from. I could find no purchases of Chinese fake trade dollars, or purchases of any Chinese coins.
I found one Chinese seller he has bought from, but the sale was so long ago I wasn't able to see what the item was, however, I checked that seller's items and could find no coins of any kind for sale.

All in all, I think the seller is honest and the coins are real, but again, I am not an expert on trade dollars, or any other coins for that matter, however, large, silver, Crown size coins are my most favored area of interest.
My investigation was done solely as a matter of due diligence to help out my fellow CT members.
For more certainty on the authenticity of these coins, there are other members who can provide much better opinions of these than I can.
We should ask for their help.

 

When it comes to trade dollars, stick with slabbed coins.

 

Agreed.

I think the grouping of trade dollars linked above have a funkiness to them and I certainly wouldn't be placing a bid

 

That's good advice for any coins that sell in the $100.00 range.

I'm not going to be placing a bid either, but that's because I can't afford the prices, slabbed or not.
Funky can be good !!
Whether or not it is in this case remains to be seen.

 

I saw 1 post on the other forum that voiced an opinion that the auctions originating in Spain might be part of the problem, otherwise that was not the thrust of the thread. The person who started the thread had noticed groups of suspicious chopmarked trade dollars fromSpain appearing in auctions over the last several years, they had multiple chopmarks, and some of the chops appeared to be repeated on a number of the coins, which is unusual; also the way the chops were applied did not look normal to this (and other) experienced collectors of chopmarked trade dollars, who commented in the thread.
I am not chop mark expert for sure, and not really a TD expert either, but I am a fan of the series, with enough examples to nearly fill a 2 row slab box.
My opinion on the above coins, for what it's worth (about what you paid for it):
1874cc- 90% chance of being fake; bad dentils in places not opposite a chop and where "shielded" from damage by the rim; bad edge reeding (recall that the reeded collar is basically a third die, cut by machine so that the reeds are very consistent)
1876-s: about a 50% chance of coin being fake; edge reeding much better but still some problems, dentils pretty good, some of the lettering has a "bloated" look I don't like, but it has a cartouche like chop that shows up on some of the others too, so I will vote for fake chops.
1874-s #1: I really can't find anything that makes me feel strongly it's a fake, 75% it's a genuine coin, but it has that cartouche chop on it
1875-S edge reeding looks bad, and there are some bad dentils I can't explain away as damaged; also has that "PO" or "OD" chop that appeared on another coin, very unusual I think 90% chance fake coin.
1874-s #2: obv and rev details don't look too bad, but edge reeding looks bad, again. very likely a fake coin, IMO.
To sum up, putting a lot of chops on a fake can hide a lot of surface problems. A good look at the edge reeding can help tremendously but is not without some caveats. People who really know chopped Trades, and the frequency of appearance of different chops over the years, have an edge on those of us who don't study these things. As far as the seller of these, he may be completely honest for all I know. I think it would be unusual for someone knowingly selling fakes to provide so many decent images of all sides of the coin. JMHO.

 

These look manufactured to me.

 

+1

 

I agree with that statement completely.

 

Here are some images of chopmarked trade dollars, for comparison. compare the appearance of the chop impressions to the questionable coins, and the metal around the chopmarks, how it's deformed. any differences?
also an image shot in a flashlight reflector of edge reeding to compare with seller's images, how does it compare?

 

another reflected image of TD edge reeding.
heck after looking at the edge reeds again I think the 74s in the OP that I thought was likely real is probably fake.....

 

I don’t like them. They’re good fakes but I don’t like all the uniformity to the chops surfaces etc. I don’t trust the denticles on a couple the chops look staged though I’m no expert on chopmarked trade dollars and the details of the coins still don’t look quite right compared to a genuine one

 

They just have that slightly off look that’s hard for me to put my finger on exactly but my gut tells me they’re not real

 

I just wonder how coins with so much detail can be so beat up, much less so often chopped. I would expect to see more wear, and less unevenness of the surfaces. Does that make sense?

 

I can remember seeing coins with multiple chop marks 60 years ago [yes, I've been collecting that long], so I din't think that's a problem on any one coin. But I also remember that more than 5 or 6 was really unusual, so the fact all have multiple chops makes me a bit wary. Also, IIRC, the one time I returned a fake [fake BEP intaglio print] and the seller returned my money, eBay considered it no transaction so I could not leave feedback. If I am right about that, you can sell all the fakes you want and keep your 100% positive feedback, as long as you pay up when caught. And I would follow the advice given above: When it come to Trade Dollars, buy slabbed coins only.

 

First of all, let me say I have no experience with trade dollars, but as a jewelry maker, I think all of them are cast and fake. The fields show too many irregular surface areas. The details are so iffy and appear to be cast in an uncleaned mold. Just my opinion.

 

I have a BIG suggestion. Please don't post the fact that you know nothing about Trade dollars and then call the coins counterfeit! It appears there is ONLY one member here who collects "Chopped Trades" and I don't agree with some of what he has posted. What I will say is I have seen C/F Trades with C/F chops and Genuine Trades with C/F chops. As long as chops are becoming more popular they will be counterfeited.

Edge reeding, number of chops, etc. These coins have become very difficult to authenticate in hand even using high magnification! "Chops" are an entirely different thing. There are probably very few folks in the world who are qualified to authenticate one.

In the thread on the other forum (CU) I posted something similar. Anyway, IMHO at this time every TPGS would slab these coins as genuine. Right or wrong, that is the state of things at the moment.

PS In the 60's and 70's some dealers had piles of chopped trades considered to be just damaged junk. They were in VF and higher and dark - priced at $35 each, pick at $45. I got my S/CC slider Unc with less than four chops for $45. It dipped out to an MS-62 beauty. I didn't have the money to buy any other Trade dollars in the pile. Many of the coins were so chopped they were practically unidentifiable.

 

It would be helpful, for someone who thinks a coin is counterfeit, to state their reasons.
Great pick on your S/CC, Insider. My AU58 cost, well, add about 2 00s to the price of yours (gulp).

 

I'm sure you understand these better than most here. I have a few questions, if you can help me a bit. I have been told that there are even contemporary counterfeit Trade dollars. Is there a way to tell the difference? Is there anything that sets the contemporary ones apart from the more modern ones?