AU with Scratches?

Ah. I see that they (still) have separate listings (and prices) for VF, XF, AU, BU, and "cleaned". I'm guessing that they aren't particularly careful about looking for signs of cleaning on the circulated coins; the "cleaned" category specifically calls out polished or ex-jewelry coins.

You might get some satisfaction from them if you point out that you paid AU money for a cleaned coin, or you might not. Regardless, I don't think you did too badly.

 

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My advice, when you're buying coins that cost as much as a double eagle, buy them certified. And I would never buy a raw U.S. gold piece.

 

Well, the local coin shop guy said that the values of double eagles, even ones in perfect shape, are way down except for a few rare dates. He said that this is because of the flood of them from European banks. He said he would only pay the melt price for the two I brought in (about $1230) and would sell double eagles only for slightly over that (about $1260). He also said that the two I brought in had been "lightly cleaned." I asked him if he had any double eagles for sale for $1260 and he showed me a rather beat up Liberty one from the 1870s. He said he had no others in the shop. At the same time, on HA.com, the lowest auction sale price within the last month was $1440 and many of them went for a lot more than that. I'm not sure what to make of all this, except that the local guy obviously has an incentive to run down the price of any coin he is buying.

 

I'll buy a raw one if it's below melt and I can be confident it's at least actual gold (weight and dimensions check out). Of course, I don't get that opportunity very often.

On the other hand, APMEX currently lists AU Saints at $1304, and MS-61 slabbed ones at $1324. I'm not sure which would look more attractive, but if you want that slab "guarantee", the premium is pretty small.

 

Thanks for the considered response. I'm a retired law professor, so I can identify with your reference to a long formal preparation period, only to be met with the lifelong learning curve of teaching, writing and research to tenure and beyond. It's hard to quit these habits when you retire, so I try to really understand whatever endeavor I am engaged in at a given time. And the miracle of the Internet makes this so much more possible than it ever was before.

But I know that there are many aspect of life that I won't understand. My blood cancer and bone marrow transplant 10 years ago are among them. For those, you need to learn as much as you can, relax, realize that you don't really understand it, and enjoy it on a lower, less-understanding level, while relying on the experts to deal with it. Fact is, I just like the double eagles and the way they look and feel. As a kid, I collected coins. But they were pennies, nickels and dimes that I found in change, which is all I could afford. I remember the thrill of finding the occasional Barber dime in change, which would happen with some regularity back then.

Anyway, I always admired the double eagles I saw in the coin shops and books and remember thinking to myself that, if I ever got to a point in life when I could afford them, it would be nice to have some. While it angers me that APMEX is passing off something as AU when it isn't AU (though there seems to be at least some difference of opinion on the issue, even in this forum), I like looking at and handling the double eagles and other gold coins I got. If I don't fully understand everything about them, that's fine. Looking at the way gold prices have been all over the place over recent years, I realize that I could well lose money on them. But (to really date myself) as Walter Cronkite used to say on the evening news, "That's the way it is."

 

William, since you are interested in double eagles, here is an example of the ultimate "trophy coin" for many collectors, 1907 High Relief $20 gold. It has been called the most beautiful U.S. coin. This is the way President Theodore Roosevelt hoped that the coin would look, but technical problems made that impossible.

The mintage was 12,367 according to The Red Book, but it's not nearly as rare as that might sound. Coin collectors, art collectors and speculators saved them from the day they were issued, and they sold for more than their face value in 1908. The surviving population probably approaches 9,000 pieces. Multiple examples are always available at the major coin shows, but the prices are high, 5 figures. I've called it the world's most expensive common coin.

And, yes, there are counterfeits of this coin. The most famous one is "the omega counterfeit." So don't go out an buy an uncertified one or one that has been authenticated by some fly by night grading service. The good ones are certified because that's how the sellers get the most money.

I'll post the history of this piece in a stand-alone message, but for now here are photos of one that NGC graded MS-65.

 

You can never lose money on the beauty of a coin if you don't sell it in a panic state because the price of gold or silver has dropped. Never buy a coin thinking you will make instant wealth. I've been a coin collector for 64 years. The coin you purchased is an AU. There are various subjective grades of AU. 50, 53, 55, 58. I won't even mention the + grades or the stickered coin holders. I won't even mention cleaning since it is another subjective subject. A piece of cotton will scratch a coin and so will a piece of steel wool or like many young collectors did in the past with an eraser (hmm, do they make pencils with erasers anymore?). The moderator has mentioned some good books on grading and counterfeit detection. I like Q. David Bower's book with the interesting reading before he gets to grading. My library has cost me over $4,000 with many books on die characteristics. I also have many books on grading and counterfeit detection. Detecting counterfeit gold, the Omega counterfeits. So much to learn, take your time. Then there are the error books and cherry pickers guides. Take things slowly as you become a serious coin collector. If you like a particular series, such as the St. Gaudens $20, buy a book on the series and learn the characteristics of the coin. Like your profession, read and study. Many of us continue to study even as we advance in age. Enjoy coin collecting, it's a great hobby.

 

It's a beauty. I had looked at some high relief ones on the web after I read all the history of the St Gaudens no motto double eagles. But what's the "ultra high relief" one I see mentioned? Also the "wire rim" one?

I see that you can get a recent US Mint reproduction of the high-relief design as .999% gold bullion: https://www.jmbullion.com/2009-uhr-double-eagle-coin/ But I agree with Auguste St Gaudens that the motto ruins the design of the reverse. Moreover, as Teddy Roosevelt said defending his instruction not to put it on the coin, use of the motto on coins was “in effect irreverence which comes dangerously close to sacrilege." At least the design-ruining aspect is why I limit my interest to 1907 and 1908 no motto St Gaudins coins. Why couldn't they have put in on the rim with E Pluribus Unum?

 

The Ultra High Relief is a pattern $20 that was earlier in the year starting perhaps in February. There are 18 to 20 known. It is in higher relief than the High relief. It took something like 8 or 9 blows from the dies to bring it up. Here one that Heritage Auction House sold for $1.8 million in 2007.

"Wire Rim" refers to a strike variation on the regular High Relief $20 gold. The die and collar did not perfectly seat, and rim or fin came up on the edge of the coin. It is very common on the High Relief $20 gold coins. The piece I showed you in the previous post does not have it. It is called the "flat rim." The presence or absense of the wire rim does not affect the value of the piece.

The 2009 bullion coin is the same diameter of a $10 gold piece, but twice as thick. It is a near copy of a pattern coin the mint made in 1907. None of them were released to the public, but two are in the Smithsonian Collection. The idea was to see if the mint could strike the High Relief design more easily if the diameter was smaller. It would have taken and act of Congress to have made that coin legal to issue.

Here an example of 2009 coin. I took photos of the pieces in the Smithsonian. The modern version is an excellent reproduction of that piece. Based on information that came in a booklet with the piece from the mint the modern piece was made from scans of the original coin. Today scans and lasers can be used to make the tools that are used to make coin dies. That's why the mint can get so many design into to production so quickly. Years ago it took months.

Here is an example of the modern coin.



You can Google the Smithsonian Collection to see the orignal example of this coin. My photos are pretty bad because I shot them through glass. I can't download the Smithsonian pictures.

 

This 1907 High Relief coin has the wire rim. You can see it best on the extreme left side of the obverse of the coin. You can also see it at the top of the reverse.

 

Very interesting! Thanks so much for sending the pictures and informative explanations.

Are bullion reproductions --- like the 2009 St-Gaudens high relief, the buffalo gold coins and modern low relief St-Gaudens --- looked down on by "real" coin collectors? I bought a low relief 1999 St-Gaudens, but I don't like the nesting eagles on the reverse as much as the dramatic closeup of the flying eagle on the originals from 1907-1908. Nor do I like the two mottos on the obverse. I'd really like to have a high relief 1907 St-Gaudens, but 5 and 6 figures is a bit beyond my budget.

 

But then maybe I can talk my wife into letting me buy a real 1907 high relief St-Gaudens. Do things like that hold their value or are they up and down all over the place like the spot price of gold?

 

Another question. I see on HA, APMEX and elsewhere coins in slabs that reference "PCGS (Prospector Label)." There doesn't appear to be a coin grade on the slab, unless it's hidden in the barcode or number on the reverse of the slab. See https://www.apmex.com/product/153578/1907-20-st-gaudens-double-eagle-pcgs-prospector-label

What does this mean?

 

Oh, I see it now. Brilliant Uncirculated.

 

The 2009 Ultra High Relief coin was very popular for a number of years after it was issued. It sold for well over the issue price for a number of years, but like most modern issues lost steam. Today it's on the Dealers' wholesale sheet ("The Greysheet") at $1,525. I can't predict the future. The piece has a high mintage of 114,427, but I doubt that the mint is issue another one in the near furture.

I don't look down on it. It's the only way to get the coin in the $20 gold 27mm format. It's a reproduction of an unobtainable, historical, pattern coin. But I'm not like a lot of collectors.

The piece came in a big mohogany box and an excellent book about the coin. You can buy it slabbed, but it is usually separted from the box and book.

So far the piece I posted has come down a bit since I bought it. If CAC would put a sticker on it, I could make money, but who knows what they might do? I'm not worrying about them until it's time for my collection to go to auction.

The coin is a classic, and "trophy coins" like that, which are supported by wealthy collectors, have faired better than the run of mill stuff. I don't where the hobby is headed.

 

What's the Greysheet and what is CAC?

 

Found the Greysheet. It's great.

 

CAC is a service that gives opinions that they agree with the grade on NGC and PCGS slabs. The green or gold oval sticker indicates they did; the absence of the sticker says they didn’t, or they have not had the coin submitted to them. There is a group of dealers who will buy the coins with the sticker. I am not a blank check supporter of CAC because they have disappointed me. I will leave it at that.