2002-J Germany 2 Euro coin stages of DDO

Hey Folks,

I probably need to do some more research into this, but I've mentioned before that I found a pattern of 2002-J Germany 2 Euro Coins being DDOs. I just received another dozen or so of these coins and have found distinct patterns of doubling with them. It seems there are generally 3 stages:

The earliest stage is almost not identifiable with a 10x loupe. In fact, I thought these were not doubled, until I took this photo with a higher powered loupe. Unfortunately, most of the ones that I have with such minimal doubling are strongly circulated. I need to re-sort my collection and see if I can find a better example. Here you can see just a little bit of doubling on the lower bar of the 2s.


There's a chance that this is next coin is actually what the first coin looks like with less circulation, but I'll need a cleaner "first" stage to be able to tell for sure. Here is the "second" stage where you can start to see doubling at the tops and bottoms of all numbers.


This is the "third" stage, which is distinct from the other two stages, as the separation is much larger and more pronounced than the other stage(s).


If anyone has any literature they can send my way about the die/hubbing/minting process of european coins, I'd be very much interested in reading it, so I can be a little more informed on what I'm looking at and how it happened.

 

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Just an opinion..
Could the first 2 coins just be examples of Die Deterioration and the third coin a true Doubled Die?

 

I can’t rule that out just yet. I don’t have a better large circumference high power loupe. I think I see enough of a split to believe it’s a DDO. I could, of course, be wrong.
More photos of a “middle stage” coin.

 

@Rick Stachowski any thoughts on this? Do these all look like DDOs to you?

 

This is a 2 piece coin .
Are both pieces doubled ?

 

The first post has photos of three coins. Each show varied levels of doubling.

Edit: the second post has three photos of one coin.

 

I understand that .
I'm just wondering if it's just the en-cert ( centered ) coin is doubled .

Here's a image I got off of the internet .
See how it's a 2 piece coin .

 

I will get back to you on that. I've noticed some doubling on the stars on some of these. Those who I sent some of these to might be able to shed some light. @paddyman98 @spirityoda @lordmarcovan

 

If somebody wants to know more about Euro coins, have a look here:

English:
https://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/other/euroleafleten.pdf?c3b62449c42a5811541b40fc8ac06e68

German:
https://www.bundesbank.de/resource/...7ab20894ce0c09df/mL/die-euro-muenzen-data.pdf

Technical specifications such as material composition, size, weight, edge type etc. it’s all there....

 

OLD DISCUSSION ALERT: We just got some of these in. Ours look like the stage 2 example, The outside ring is also doubled on the stars on the bottom half of the coin.

 

It seems that I watched this thread, but never posted to it. Looking at the claw it looks like a class lV doubling or offset hub doubling.
Some nice stereo microscope close ups of the coin or areas of doubling would be nice @Insider

 

Thanks for reviving this thread. I finally bought two OBW from a seller for these. I was really hoping they’d be the third stage, but you can’t win them all! I continue to hunt these in the wild and keep all the DDOs I find.

 

There's no such things as "stages" of doubled dies. Either the die is doubled or it isn't, it doesn't evolve, like, for instance, in a die crack. Take note of the strike doubling on the tail feathers as the strike doubling on the date becomes the more apparent.

 

It’s not strike doubling, it is die doubling. Edit: you can see separation in the bottom of the 2, where the devices are larger, not reduced. The photos should be clear from my original post. I used the term “stage” just to differentiate the types of doubled dies I am seeing. There are at least three dies that got doubled in 2002-J, and they’re all different, with the separation larger with each of the ones I showed. The coins I submitted to ICG show the mid-level separation , that I labeled “stage 2” for making the discussion easier. Your response makes me think I didn’t make that clear enough, so I apologize for that. No one intended to say the dies are “evolving.”

 

Do you see how the tail feathers in this third example are "doubled" on both ends? That's not from a doubled die, but from strike doubling. Having said that, I see the "separation" in some of the numbers you're referencing, but that's not definitive, as strike doubling will also show that way. Do you know whether these are from single hubbings? That may hold the key. It may be that kind of "die doubling." If single hubbings, it's caused by a bounce or slide, just as in strike-doubled coins. Some infinitesimal movement at that hubbing stage, and vuala, a "doubled die!" Can see "experts" on these calling it that...

 

I’m not sure what you’re getting at, but that date is clearly doubled and definitely not by strike/machine doubling. I’m not worried about the feathers, I’m focused on the date and stars. Devices are larger, not smaller. It’s a doubled die. I don’t see any value in discussing this further. I will share updates when I get my coins back from ICG. Merry Christmas.

 

@eddiespin,

I think you are mistaken.

 

In this instance I agree 100%

 

@Seattlite86 did you get these back?

 

@Insider, if it's a single hubbing, that's what it is, it's strike doubling at that hubbing stage. A doubled die isn't strike doubling, it's two separate hubbings, unaligned. The single hubbed "doubled dies" are single hubbings that just moved some, just as in a strike doubled coin. The concept isn't difficult to grasp. If this is a single hubbing, it simulates strike doubling, but as it happened at the hubbing stage, they're calling it a doubled die. And it is, technically speaking, every bit hub doubled. But from a skip or slide, and not a second hubbing. And these look different for it. They look like strike doubling for it. And they're as impressive as that for it. But they'll repeat, as they're off the die, and that's why they're collectable. And, I'll add, any "serif separation" is due to the hub skipping, as opposed to it sliding.