real shekel or not

What tells did you see? The one in the OP feels fake, but the one you just posted looks much more genuine?

 

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I agree with Al completely except for one little detail. I would have placed quotation marks around "experts". A problem in the hobby as the appeal of ancient coins extends to a larger population is that there are an increasing number of people with a little knowledge selling coins to people with a little less but still enough to protect themselves from the tourist grade fakes. When these lower level "experts' are running local coin stores or selling all sorts of coins online we encounter a new level of danger. Even if the coins are offered with a money back guarantee, many will be put away and not revealed until the collection is sold by another generation.

It costs a lot of money to make really good fakes. Transfer dies are not appealing to make just one example. That makes the practice most appealing for really popular coins like the shekels here, Tribute Pennies and other religious items that appeal to people that have not handled many coins but still want to spend big money of the coin. What can we do? I have no interest in learning all there is to know about these coins as a specialty (and do not own a shekel) so I could only rely on my source for guidance. This is the last coin that you should buy at a flea market, from your local "we sell anything" coin store or from a general dealer in ancient coins with considerable expertise in some fields but who has not made a careful study of these both real and fake. Perhaps this is the one coin I would suggest be bought in a slab but not just any of the increasing number of off brand plastic pushers. These coins exist by the thousands but demand will continue to make them appealing to the criminal element. My answer is to collect something else but I really hope those of you who 'have' to have one of these will take special care in picking your "expert".

 

As Al Kowsky said, this has indeed been a learning experience. I especially want to thank Barry Murphy for his contribution. I have dropped any interest in this shekel which is listed in Katz e-auction 19. Now I am resolved to look much closer at any future shekel I consider buying. Thanks to all who added to this thread.

 

Very interesting thread and I definitely learned something new. Probably enough to want to stay away from this particular variety of coins.

 

This has been one of the better "is my coin real" threads. I showed the coin to my wife. (she is not a coin collector, but by proxy, has seen thousands.) She said it was obviously fake. I said, "but, look at my response." She read it and said, "Then both of them are fake." I scoffed. Greater life lesson: The wife is always right.

Thanks for clarifying @Barry Murphy
Michael

 

tartanhill. Shekels of Tyre are, allegedly, the most popular of ancient coins, and the main silver coinage of a powerful maritime city in ancient Phoenicia. Said to be the most likely candidate for the "30 pieces of silver" paid to Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus Christ. But don't be too impressed - I've just looked that info up !!! I believe there are variations of that coin. Fake or genuine ? Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't !!!

 

Bert, there’s no maybe within these. They are forgeries.

Barry Murphy

 

Is the Earth round or flat: Two views!

Or not. Some questions do have answers.

 

They may be forgeries, Barry, that's very possible. But I reserve my right to sit on the fence, together with my Maybe banner. If I don't know, that is my right.

 

It is your right, Bert, but in addition to the social aspects of enjoying our hobby, another valuable role of CoinTalk is education and prevention of the spread of misinformation.

All of the inexpert opinions offered in this thread were based on pictures. Barry's opinion was based on in-hand examination of nearly two dozen of this particular series of modern forgeries. In case you don't know Barry Murphy, he has decades of experience in the world of ancient coins-- from CNG cataloger to dealer and now to one of the two principals at NGC Ancients. His job is to know ancient coins and modern forgeries.

Note also the emails he shared in this matter-- Victor England, former owner of CNG, trusted Barry's opinion about these forgeries.

To restate the facts for anyone who later comes across this thread and doesn't read every post, the coin shown in the original post is without a doubt a modern fake.

Thanks for the information, Barry. This has been a very interesting thread!

 

TIF, your comments, written with such an air of superiority, is staggering. You, preferring, perhaps Soviet style conformity, enjoy marching with the Big Battalions. You seem to have little respect for democratic questioning, which to many of us make the difference between democracy and dictatorship. Not to exchange differing views is simply wrong, whether in science, history, politics or many other areas, including numismatics. Barry Murphy may well be an expert in his field - but I would be most surprised if there weren't other highly qualified experts who, in some matters, disagree with Barry's conclusions. That is the way of the world. _I'm quite sure on one thing, TIF. If we all, in Coin talk, shared the same opinion on everything, that would not be even your idea of "a very interesting thread !"

 

I didn't find TIF's tone to be condescending. In fact, I found it to be reasonably charitable, even though TIF has the experience and the collection to be legitimately condescending if she so pleased.

I can appreciate the concept that a free exchange of thoughtful, informed opinions can make a community better. But I'm not going to treat as equally valid the opinion of a recognized expert who has handled many of these coins in-hand and someone who has made a brief trip to Wikipedia and thought he'd weigh in.

If there are indeed experts who might be inclined to disagree with Barry Murphy, who are they? One expert, Victor England, felt that Barry's professional judgment was enough. The concept that there is someone out there who might possibly disagree with Barry Murphy is just an argument to ignorance.

 

This guy has never posted ANY coins, has always regurgitated google and wiki searches, without truly knowing anything about coins. He is always busy stirring up the threads... in my opinion, he is acting like a TROLL.

We have seen them before: some were gross harassers, some acted like real collectors... but in the end, they never contributed, just stirred up the threads under the guise of “democratic questioning” or some other justification.

IGNORE button!

 

Indeed, based on his posts in the Phanes thread ( https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ancient-coins.332373/page-3 ) and that Bert didn't know who Harlan Berk was yet is claiming to know about ancient coins... this is textbook troll behavior.

 

A bad comparison in my opinion, there are answers and there are facts. That the earth is round, is a fact, it can be validated by natural science (i.e. physics) by experiments like Foucault pendulum and geodesic measurements. A coin can not be validated if it is ancient or modern, unless they come with a new dating method for silver that can determine if this silver is in fact ancient. For example existing dating methods are radiocarbon dating or thermoluminescence dating. Unfortunately we still need in the numismatic world expert opinions in order to know if a coin is ancient or a modern fake. I am sure that Barry Murphy has enough experience to give a very trustworthy and knowledgeable opinion that this coin is fake.

 

For quite some time, I have been classed as a Well-Known Member. I have never pretended to be an expert, and I assumed that CoinTalk was for people with a variety of backgrounds. When I see someone, not just indulging in collective bullying, but disputing "democratic questioning", that is a road to …….!!!

 

Who would these "highly qualified experts" be who disagree in this case? Please cite their actual experience and credentials, not just trot out your neighbor down the street who's really interested in old stuff.

 

"A coin can not be validated if it is ancient or modern, unless they come with a new dating method for silver that can determine if this silver is in fact ancient.'

Actually that's not true. While there is a lot of gray area in numismatics, many coins can be proven to be 100% genuine or 100% false.

Barry Murphy

 

Bert, Have you been hitting the sauce?

 

You can melt down a cheap but authentic anicent coin and you will pass Pb-210 test and alloy tests.
Alloy tests can only catch tourist and low quality fakes for which they are using modern silver with different alloy composition or Pb-210 test to see check if metal was melted less then 120 years ago.