Ethics Observation

As Ebay is tightening the screws on deceptive or fraudlent sellers the "witch hunt' so-to-speak that it's active members have gone on against those who'd defraud the unsuspecting is beginning to pay off with fewer and fewer obviously counterfeit coins lasting their entire auction duration.

Unfortunately with this purge there have been some honest individuals get their auctions pulled or NARUd for a period of time. It's bound to happen with the sweeping overhaul Ebay has instituted. One thing I can't help but wonder about is, does Ebay take into consideration the status (seller or buyer) of the member who reports the fraudulent or misleading listings?

What are your thoughts? Should a seller report another seller and when they do one has to wonder if it serves a more nefarious purpose. Getting the competition out of the way as it were...

Fire Away
Ben

 

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i think anyone should be allowed to report a fake seller selling fake items. alot of sellers are the very people who know alot about what they are selling - coins, currency and other items. I am not sying all sellers know alot.. but they are out there. To prevent themfrom being able to report a bad seller, would be a disservice to the buyers looking for the real deal.

I see your point that a seller could report another seller who is selling competetive items, but i dont think there is a way to stop that. No matter what system you put in place - there will be bad guys doing bad things. I am not a hug seller, and do not sell anythign numismatic - and i dont want to upset those who do alot of selling - but i would rather see some good auctions accidentily be pulled, then leave all the bad ones run there course!

 

It was bound to get ugly Ben. Unfortunate but true.

I hope ebay does take reputation, number of complaints made, number of complaints against etc. into consideration.

Scum attacks scum and anything else for that matter. I can give an analogy of a town I live VERY close to.
Gary, IN has had one of, if not THE, highest per capita murder rates for years. Most people don't realize that a huge part of that is scum killing scum. Gangs, drug deals gone bad etc. Yes, unfortunately Joe Citizen gets caught in the crossfire at times.

ArizonaJack has had his share of "fun" with a few scammers. Now Jack is a good seller IMHO. He went round and round with a particular scammer on a few occasions. Rembember what that seller did? Came in as "fake" Jack and started blasting a lot of other sellers, many of which were "legit". Yes, he got booted from CT real fast but it shows you how pathetic an individual like that is.
A last gasp as it were and he'll be back. I think many of us know this.

Ebay needs to do some restructuring to help combat this "phenomenon". Yes, it is a business but public outcry is getting louder. Cut down on the TV adds and start really digging into the problem. Realistically it will never be totatlly fixed. It can certainly improve though.


I used to sell on ebay a lot years ago but it's not worth it to me anymore. My feedback and reputation are good.
I don't report as many items as I should but do ask sellers a lot of "questions". Will it get me tossed off someday. Perhaps, but no real loss in my book.

I hope to list an item soon though. It will most likely be a common date, low grade Indian Cent. If I get the inspiration this will be the longest, full of &(#) auction I've ever posted. A lengthy "educational" tool as it were and loaded with sarcasm.
I'll make sure it's shared with CT members.

clembo

 

What do you think about the member who has two or more Ebay handles? These are some doors (with squeaky hinges, LOL) which lead to alot of the problems, not everyone mind you but some use this deceptive practice for fraudlent gains. I'm not talking about the fellow who buys dirty movies, etc., LOL but the individual(s) who... Well you know.

Take Care
Ben

 

Ben, I'm trying my best not to sound paranoid here, and hope I need not be...but here goes

Sellers who specialize in an area like coins, usually are able to spot those who are on the shady side or downright shysters. They are also able to spot those who, to quote Tony Montana, " fly straight ".

I use 2 ebay Id's, and both are well known here, never ever has been a secret, and I'll explain why. Simple. I do not want to post my wholosale buy price list on the front door to the business. Thats reason #1.

Reason #2. A seller may ( most do ) have 2 Ebay id's, with the second a buy account. Feedback is much more important to a seller. If ripped off or screwed, a seller is at the mercy of the OLD fedback system, and may not be willing to neg due to fear of a retailatory neg damaging our reputation.

As Clembo said above, I made it a mission a while back to go after a certain fraud artist, twice in fact. Seated Kingo did not even sell Lincolns, which would be in my catagory of expertise and majority of my listings are Lincolns. He was not my competition in any way , shape or form.

He was targeted because he ripped off with a known fake 21-S Walker, a friend of mine. This put him on my radar map and I watched him. Eventually figuring out the "buy" of the replica and getting buyer a refund thru threatening emails and "other" reporting to law enforcement. Kingo left Ebay if you remember, only to pop up a month later with a new ID, Seated.......

Other forums do exist, and thru these, he was outed again, but just made fun of. Only this time, he had stepped it up a notch and turned " pro shyster" using tactics we are all familiar with, the netgrade crackout. Again, only to be hounded and reported into quitting by many more than just me. It was the right thing to do, rid the bay of that dirtbag.

Reporting crooked sellers and fraudulent methods and items is the right thing to do. As a coin seller, I can usually spot a fraud pretty quickly. If you take note, I have also made it a point here to point out the goodguys as well, and have brought several of them to this forum.

More good sellers will only improve the situation, more competition is the American way, and ALWAYS serves to make things better....

I hope I read this the wrong way, and was not a principle in your thoughts when making this thread post.

 

Oh, heck no Jack, you're a Straight Shooter. I didn't even know you used two. I'm talking about those who have one ID banned and they just switch over to the next one and keep on scamming.

Take Care
Ben

 

here's the problem with eBay - they supposedly are not experts in the items listed, yet for coins, they are acting as such. simply because someone states that a coin is not legit does not make it so. there are some fakes that are just as valuable as the original, are those auctions being squelched?

with the ANA overstepping it's reach, nevermind the obvious conflicts of interest, eBay is only muddying the waters. they are in fact encouraging the counterfeiting of PCGS and NGC slabs. a recent issue of Coin World disclosed the flaws with the counterfeit NGC slabs so collectors can be on the look out - i'm sure the next batch will not have those problems.

eBay seems to want their cake and be able to eat it - either they employ a professional numismatist to vet the auctions or they should keep their hands off the auctions. what they are doing right now makes it very difficult as a seller or buyer - they are breaking down the barrier of trust to line their pockets.

-steve

 

It's a real simple thing to do.

Minimum of 5 reports from 5 separate individuals with a minimum feedback of 25 (and not just 5 separate ID's).
Then the item shows up on an ebay employees radar to review and act on.

Set a llimit for yanked fraudulent auctions and have the system automatically NARU the id that listed them.

 

Are you saying the this IS the policy or that it SHOULD BE the policy?

 

I don't think it should matter who reports it. If a seller has a fraudulent listing, what difference does it make whether it's another seller or a buyer who reports it? I do think Ebay needs to educate itself so that when such claims are made, they can make an educated decission about pulling it or letting it stand as is. Making claims on a ligitimate scam is one thing, but making one to remove competitors should be constued as scamming as well.
Guy~

 

In a perfect world, you are correct. However, eBay sells more than coins - a lot more. And there is no way they can be educated in every field. As soon as you say they should know coins, stamp people (or glass, art, auto, etc.) think they should also know their field(s). Where does it stop? Also, what do you think those Indian/Pakistan people know about American coins?

 

My Great Aunt Ivy used to say something like "Stay away from Bow-Legged Men who wear Pin-Stripe Suits" when it came to haggling over the price of anything, LOL...

 

I used to use ebay a few years ago for a lot of different things. But not so much with coins. A lot of fishing stuff and random od's & ends, computer parts and such. "Now" Im not saying I have not bought coins on ebay. But I found its to much work most of the time looking for what you want and waiting to make bids just to get ( whats it called? ) SNIPPED. Then there is the waiting for the mail. I can't stand waiting for a coin in the mail. Thinking, I hope I didnt get ripped off for a week after sending a few hundred bucks to god knows who over the internet. I say Ebay shmeebay. I like my local dealers that I have been buying from for past 30 and some od years.

 

I have sold coins rarely on ebay, even then they were harder to find proof sets, most of what I have sold has been some of my wife's retired longaberger baskets. Ebay is a great place, I just prefer to be a buyer there, even if I do only do a couple of transactions a year. I have reported many upon many an auction, I don't think just because you buy and sell or have two id's that it is okay to let others get ripped off. If something is wrong, fix it.

 

I am under the impression that Ebay doesn't decide which listings are counterfeit, etc. and need to be pulled. As stated, they don't have the expertise, so I believe that they enlist the help of the ANA and/or other experts to make such determinations.

Accordingly, it doesn't necessarily matter how many reports are made or what the (buying or selling) status of the reporting member is. That should help ensure that personal and/or competitive motives on the part of the reporting member don't unfairly penalize honest sellers.

 

Hmmm, so you're saying that when we (collectively as members of the Numismatic Community) report questionable Ebay listings they don't act on them? Wonder why they have the report button?

I think they (Ebay) made the error when they veered from the individual (member/item) reports to "wide sweeping" expungement which unfortunately has caught up some of the innocent as well as the guilty.

Chuckle, Ebay's sub-contractors (who also happen to be big coin sellers) got them in this pickle. I wonder if these subs will step forward when the payout comes around?
http://www.auctionbytes.com/cab/abn/y08/m01/i23/s02

Take Care
Ben

 

Ebay has the "report" button, so that people can report items, at which time Ebay consults people who do know something about coins, and then either takes action or not. Have you read the message that Ebay sends out in reply to reports? I don't have one saved at this time, but I believe it makes reference to what I just posted.

 

Oh yes, I have several saved, but when they consult people who are themselves (selling players) in the game then you can see the problem or preception of a problem which has surfaced.

Take Care
Ben

 

I have seen a a number of innocent sellers have their listings pulled in error by Ebay, but attribute that to confusion by Ebay, not intentional acts on the part of other sellers/consultants. On the other hand, I have also seen a much larger number of listings deservedly get ended. Imperfect? Yes. A big improvement? Absolutely.

 

I agree, but sadly in these days of "instant litigation" it doesn't take much to be hauled into a Court of Business Law" which is (unfortunately or deservedly depending on how you look at it) what has happened to Ebay.

And, to be quite honest if I was one of the small time legitmate sellers who's simply trying to sell a few coins (to pay for Mama's Operation) and accidently got swept up in this purge I'd probably be looking in the Yellow Pages as well if Ebay blew me off.

The bugs in this program are going to get expensive...

Take Care
Ben