Thoughts on NGC/NCS Conservation?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by LM3012, Feb 28, 2017.

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  1. Silverhouse

    Silverhouse Well-Known Member

    I've never had a coin to send in for conservation. Working on a mainly quarters only set takes awhile. Hard not to veer off course with so many beautiful coins out there.
     
    Silverhouse, Aug 11, 2017
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  3. BigTee44

    BigTee44 Well-Known Member

    Before: 1857 Flying Eagle AU55.jpg

    After:
    1857_Flying_NGCAU55.jpg
    It was worth it in my situation, then NGC confirmed my opinion it was a S-1.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
    BigTee44, Aug 13, 2017
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  4. MrDSmith

    MrDSmith Senior Member

    That's a much nicer looking coin.

    Sent from my SM-A710F using Tapatalk
     
    MrDSmith, Aug 13, 2017
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  5. BigTee44

    BigTee44 Well-Known Member

    The after was also taken with a new 100mm Macro lens, but the NCS sure did make it look much "cleaner".

    I have a 1840/1840 Seated Half that's an XF45 CAC that I want to send to NCS and NGC for the variety.... but you never know what's under the gunk... the only part that really annoys me is the gunk around her neck. I sent it in raw and they removed some from the wing which made it look much better. Maybe some day in the future, we'll see.
    1840 Seated Liberty Half Dollar.jpg
     
    BigTee44, Aug 13, 2017
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  6. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    That looks more like damage + gunk. Look at the hit on the ribbon to the left of the shield. One large hit like that often indicates there may be more. The coin should May not go down in grade if you crack it and soak it in acetone - no rubbing of any kind as you do not want to change the color much. If the crud loosens and the coin shows no additional damage, send it in with the parts of the slab w/CAC sticker, the old label, and a note that the slab was broken - LOL. It cannot hurt, but I've heard that folks try fast ones like this all the time. You should get it straight graded (if not damaged) + the variety.
     
    Insider, Aug 14, 2017
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  7. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    It warms my heart every time I see a coin crossed from PCGS to NGC. "The market" can go do terrible things to itself.
     
    V. Kurt Bellman, Aug 14, 2017
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  8. Brian Calvert

    Brian Calvert Active Member

    Curious if you listen to his videos, and if you thought or have bought off of the Royal Mint Site....
    How lucky are they to have such a low mintage set of coin as the GOLD Sovereigns... Low thousands... of course they sell out in no time... That is a great way to increase value. The US mint should think to do the same with certain coins.
    Put a low mintage on them and with hold 1000 or 5K for a later date....
     
    Brian Calvert, Aug 14, 2017
    #47 + Quote Reply
  9. Deposito

    Deposito New Member

    Ever on ancient silver to simply eliminate the oxidation (toning) ? On my avatar photo is a denarius I like the toning on, so would not want a change. But I have some plain black denarii in great underlying condition, and even under good light, they are harder to appreciate than the lustrous clear ones. I think for silver and gold they can use electrolysis to safely delete only the oxidation, but this is not safe if you do not know what you are doing (car battery leads into a fluid, etc.)
    Maybe (surely) they have other techniques I can't imagine. I'd really like to see any examples of NCS results on ancient silver
     
    Deposito, Nov 25, 2018
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  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Of course it can be done, silver is silver. It doesn't matter how old the coin is, it can always be dipped to remove toning. Take the coin in your avatar for example, it's pretty much a given that your coin has been dipped at some point in its life, and probably more than once. The fact that it was dipped is why it now has the toning it does have.

    Dipping coins in chemicals to remove toning is not something new, it's been around for centuries and it is and always was extremely common. Over 80% of ALL coins over 50 years old have been dipped to remove toning at least once and often more than once, and yes that includes ancients.

    But here's the thing with the conservation services. When you send them a coin they will examine it and decide if it is a good candidate for dipping or not. If they think not then they won't do anything to the coin. If they think it is a good candidate then they will dip it.

    A lot of, and probably most, folks aren't aware of it but NGC and PCGS have been dipping coins to remove toning for as long as the companies have existed. But it was not until 2001 and later that they each formed sister companies for the express purpose of dipping coins.
     
    GDJMSP, Nov 26, 2018
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  11. mikenoodle

    mikenoodle The Village Idiot Supporter

    I have to disagree Doug. A couple of years ago, I recommended to the shop owner that I work for that he send this particular Buffalo nickel off to be conserved and then graded.

    NGC dipped the coin and then sent it back as questionable cleaning in a details slab.

    They took his money and made his coin way worse. They exercised no judgment. They didn’t think about the coin as a candidate.
     
    mikenoodle, Nov 26, 2018
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  12. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    They very likely did exercise their judgment, they just happened to be wrong. It's going to happen from time to time unless you are ultra conservative on what you will and will no do and even then it will probably still happen at one point. There was a really big time coin they conserved that people were not happy with the final result Seated or Bust dollar I think I am drawing a blank on the last coin and I would bet they really thought about that one before hand. There's always going to be some risk with conservation whenever you start getting into the stronger methods
     
    baseball21, Nov 27, 2018
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  13. mikenoodle

    mikenoodle The Village Idiot Supporter

    The point is that they bore no risk and suffered no consequences when things went wrong.

    That is a direct contradiction to what Doug said.
     
    mikenoodle, Nov 27, 2018
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  14. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Surely I thought you would have gotten used to this by now. :eek::Do_O
     
    V. Kurt Bellman, Nov 27, 2018
    #53 + Quote Reply
  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    No, it's not a contradiction Mike. It's merely what baseball said - they were wrong in their judgement.

    As for bearing no risk and suffering no consequences, you're right there, but then they never have borne any risk, at least not in that regard. Anybody who sends them a coin stands the risk of that coin coming back in a problem coin slab, or in years past of it coming back not in a slab at all. But the submitter always pays the fees regardless of the outcome.

    Same thing here. They examine a coin and make a judgement call, but if it turns out they're wrong in their judgement - you still pay the fees, and you suffer the consequences. Just like ya do when a coin comes back in a problem coin slab.

    upload_2018-11-27_11-9-10.png


    https://www.ngccoin.com/ncs-conservation/


    And the same thing happens with anyone who dips a coin. There is always the risk that the toning is covering up something that would cause the coin to be given the problem coin designation. Or, the dipping may reveal things like hairlines, or wear, that could not be seen through the toning that would cause a severe downgrade. Or, the dipping may reveal that all luster was destroyed by the toning. Simply put when you dip a coin you take your chances, it's always a gamble.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2018
    GDJMSP, Nov 27, 2018
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  16. Fin

    Fin New Member

    I have never seen a slab with the words, "Properly Cleaned."
    I have never seen a slab with the words, "Properly Conserved."
    I have seen many slabs with the words, "Improperly Cleaned."
    Is there even any way to find out if you have a coin that has been properly conserved or properly cleaned?
     
    Fin, Apr 30, 2020
    #55 + Quote Reply
  17. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Yes, if you send it in and ask for it to be "conserved", that's about the only way. Welcome to CT...ancillary question How can you tell if a coin has been correctly cleaned? Answer - you can't or you did it yourself, or both.
     
    Kentucky, Apr 30, 2020
    #56 + Quote Reply
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  18. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Fin, asked: "Is there even any way to find out if you have a coin that has been properly conserved or properly cleaned?"

    I don't think it matters.
     
    Insider, Apr 30, 2020
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  19. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I agree, it really doesn't matter - because when it's done properly you can't tell that it's been done. ......

    And Fin, this next part is for you - ...... except by using deductive reasoning.

    So what's that mean exactly ? It's pretty simple really. In many cases, not all of course but in many cases, one can tell that a coin has been properly cleaned simply by carefully looking at the coin, observing what you see, and then reasoning out how it got to be that way.

    For example, in some cases a coin may have been covered with dirt and grime, but then it was properly cleaned. But, some small bits of that dirt and grime may still remain in the more protected areas. Or, a coin may have been covered with unsightly toning, in some cases even black. But then the coin was properly cleaned by dipping it, but some small bits of the toning may remain here and there in the more protected areas, but nowhere else. In both cases deductive reasoning tells you that the coin has been properly cleaned.

    And it goes even beyond that. For example, all coins tone and they begin toning the moment after they are struck, this is a given. So if you see a coin that is say 50 years old or older, and it is not toned, then it's a pretty safe bet that coin has been dipped - properly cleaned - again deductive reasoning. Some, stress some, Morgan dollars are one of the few exceptions to this rule. Are there some other coins that are also exceptions ? Yes, but they are very few and far between.

    But perhaps one of the best and easiest examples to identify as having been properly cleaned are copper coins, especially US cents. I say that because even the population numbers of all US cents that have graded and slabbed as Red far outnumber all the other cents, RB and BN, combined. And since copper is the most reactive coinage metal we have, meaning copper coins tone more readily, easier, and faster than all other coins, the only way there can be more of them that are original mint red than all others combined is if those coins have been properly cleaned - meaning dipped ! Again, deductive reasoning.

    But like Mike said, and if you throw deductive reasoning out, it simply doesn't matter because you can't tell it has been done.
     
    GDJMSP, May 1, 2020
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  20. Jaelus

    Jaelus The Hungarian Antiquarian Supporter

    Yes but, I mean, we all know these RD coins are not showing original copper color. That red color is toning, it's just not dark toning. Do you not find it more likely that these coins simply have stable red toning?
     
    Jaelus, May 1, 2020
    #59 + Quote Reply
  21. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Of course they do, many of the RB and especially BN arent worth the cost of grading. The number of 50C to $3/5 dollar brown cents sitting in bags and bulk sales far outnumber the red cents worth grading
     
    baseball21, May 1, 2020
    #60 + Quote Reply
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