Featured Can you define artificial toning ?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by GDJMSP, Nov 12, 2018.

  1. AussieCollector

    AussieCollector Moderator Moderator

    I think you'll find that intent is absolutely relevant in law.

    The clearest example I can think of is manslaughter. If intent isn't relevant, what is manslaughter? Or even more so, involuntary manslaughter?
     
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  3. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Knocked that one out of the park.
     
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  4. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Sure it is! It even has a Latin phrase for it - “mens rea”. At least jurisprudence DID require it before we warped our criminal codes with political red meat for the masses. We largely don’t do “justice” any more, instead having de facto Departments of Societal Ourage and Retribution.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
  5. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Look up accomplice liability laws laws as one example, you should know this.

    Here's what I corrected that you said "If I lose control of my car, and accidentally kill the occupant, I will not face charges. Even if the accident occurs because I'm reckless, it's still not murder."

    That is completely false. I don't feel like writing a dissertation about the rest of everything here or citing countless case laws and examples where saying "But I didn't mean too" didn't matter one bit.

    If you guys wanna believe that by all means go ahead or keep backtracking. I corrected an incorrect statement that was all
     
  6. AussieCollector

    AussieCollector Moderator Moderator

    You still haven't answered my question. If intent is irrelevant, what is manslaughter?
     
  7. Ima Dragon

    Ima Dragon Year of the Dragon

    I should have known that if there was a market for them there would be Counterfeiting .
     
  8. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Our trend as a society is as you say, much to my chagrin. We (and I did have a frontrow seat for a lot of it) have been relentlessly criminalizing what should be civil torts for decades now. That doesn’t make it a sound idea, or compatible with our legal traditions. It’s called kowtowing to prosecutors.
     
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  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    As was already pointed out oxygen is a requirement for toning to occur. So reduce the amount of oxygen getting to the coin and you slow down toning. Increase the amount and it speeds up.

    But that's only part of it. Other contaminants in the air also play a part. They work in conjunction with the gasses being put off by the album, and the oxygen. So it's the combination being just right that results in the toning being accelerated or slowed down, as well as the various colors produced.

    And again, that's only part of it. Consider this. A coin in an album, open on both sides, but covered by the slides. This means the gasses from only a small amount of cardboard are freely and readily coming into contact with the coin. Now remove the slides - and suddenly the gasses from all of the cardboard in the entire album, as opposed to just tiny pieces of the cardboard, have free and ready access to the coin. Which one is likely to affect the coin more ?

    The point I'm making is that what seems to be intuitive, is actually counterintuitive.

    One should also always remember than when it comes to toning there are literally a thousand variables involved. And each one of them can change the outcome. This is why an entire group of collectors can all use the same album but each one of them have completely different results. Every person their is, their home is different from that of another person. And because their home is different the contaminants in the air is different.
     
  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Have you ever wondered why Paul ? The answer is pretty simple, and it is NOT because it can't be done. It's because nobody is willing to spend a significant amount of money to do something - just to prove to you that it can be done when they already know without a doubt that it can be done.

    Ya see Paul, in simple terms, you're not worth it. Not worth the effort nor the money !
     
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  11. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    A whole bunch of truth in life, PARTICULARLY in macroeconomics, is COMPLETELY counterintuitive.
     
  12. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    The equipment setup is a pain and expensive, as Doug said. The “fixed costs” are significant, in terms of money and disruption in a loft apartment. But once it is done, the variable costs are negligible, kind of like a meth lab. Oddly enough, methylamine, a meth precursor chemical, will also tone the crap out of coins. It used to be completely legal, but no longer in my state. But then we had more cold remedies available before too.

    I used to have a concrete out-building in a very secluded area. For toning experiments.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
  13. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Hey, great idea! From now on, I suggest we rename AI as NMAI. Not market acceptable intelligence. Whatcha thank? Huh? Huh?
     
  14. SlipperySocks

    SlipperySocks Well-Known Member

    Here you go gentleman.......

    A scientific demonstration that explains the chemistry of toning coins in seconds;



    Another on removing toning;

     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2018
    Michael K likes this.
  15. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Nope, just more dodgeball by our resident smoke blower. If you can do what you claim, one submission to PCGS would more than cover your costs.

    Stop making excuses and PROVE IT!
     
    baseball21 likes this.
  16. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Those aren’t market acceptable.
     
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  17. CoinCorgi

    CoinCorgi Tell your dog I said hi!

    jeez, you have no imagination.
     
  18. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    So you accused me of being a coin doctor but you had a secluded concrete building in which you artificially toned coins.
     
  19. V. Kurt Bellman

    V. Kurt Bellman Yes, I'm blunt! Get over your "feeeeelings".

    Yes I have, cheap nothing coins. To learn whether I should trust the toner market. And I have concluded I should not. You see, in addition to reading, when I had the appropriate space, I did my own research.
     
  20. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Anodizing does not produce market acceptable toning, period!

    You guys act like this is the first time this topic has ever been discussed.
     
    baseball21 likes this.
  21. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Were your toners market acceptable or did you simply conclude that with enough practice that you could eventually reach market acceptability?

    Can we see some of your results?
     
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