I will have a chance at a local auction to bid on some ms/sp/pr 70 liberty silver eagles. IS the ICG 70 really a 70. I am not that good at grading so I try to stick to the top-notch independent graders. Thanks in advance for your opinions.
Many collecters will scoff at the idea of paying big premiums for MS70 silver eagles in anybody's plastic. And no, ICG's opinion is not generally considered as "top tier" as NGC/PCGS.
If you can pick the difference between 69s and 70s more than half the time, then you are a pro. For the money, I can't tell the difference most of the time - especially when they have milk spots form on them.
I Feel you are correct that many collectors have a hard time telling the difference between the MS 69's and MS 70's. I've seen better looking 69's than 70's. Plus the price difference isn't worth it. Just my personal opinion. If you look around you can find some nice coins in ICG holders but I have to agree with those that believe they're not in the same league as PCGS and NGC. ANACS seems to have fallen out of favor with a lot of collectors but you can still find good bargains in their holders.
ICG along with SEGS and PCI are reasonable TPG's. But generally it is suggested NOT to buy sight unseen. But then that's also said of PCGS, NGC and ANACS. Just be a bit more careful with ICG.
These discussions come up all the time and have for as long as coin forums have existed - and not just this one. But before there can even be a meaningful discussion there are a few things that need to be acknowledged and understood. First would be that it doesn't matter who the graders are. Just about all of them have worked at all or most of the various TPGs at one time or another. So it's not the actual people doing the grading that matters. Second would be that each and every TPG has its own unique set of grading standards and no two of them are the same. Next would be that the graders who work there are told by the company how to grade the coins. In other words the graders absolutely must grade coins according to the grading standards they are given - whether they personally agree with them or not. Next would the fact that for the last 14-15 years all the TPGs change their grading standards from time to time. And sometimes the companies even change ownership, which can also presage a change in standards. The point of this is that it not only matters which TPG graded the coin, but when the coin was graded is of extreme importance ! All of these things combined dictate and affect the grade assigned to each and every coin by all the TPGs. So, the question is always the same - is this TPG or that TPG the equal of another ? Given what I've just told you above there can only be one answer - of course not ! It's impossible for any TPG to be the equal of another because each and every one of them uses different grading standards, and even those change ! And not only that, each one of them grades different series of coins differently. One TPG is more strict with this one, another is more strict with that one. And at various times some TPGs even refused to assign some grades - as a matter of company policy. So to answer this seemingly simple question one must ask, and first answer, several questions. Like which TPG, in what year, what coin is it, and what grade is it ? Because of all of these things it then by necessity becomes an apples and oranges question and you can only compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. Bottom line trying to compare TPGs is a fools errand. The old tried and true mantra is and always has been the only thing that actually works - completely ignore the plastic - regardless of whose plastic it is ! When it comes to buying coins the one and only thing you should be considering is the coin itself. Buy the coin - not the slab !
I appreciate all the answers and the thought that went into them. I am under the opinion that proof eagle average grade is PF69. Makes me think that pf70 is not that rare.
It all depends on what you're looking at. I like ICG, but for moderns and ASEs PCGS and NGC dominate that market. It's not a knock on ICG as I believe they do a better job than ANACS, but the market is what it is. Nothing wrong with an ICG ASE 70 just don't pay PCGS prices for it as very few sellers can get that. Overall yes they are a good service and are especially good on things not worth the PCGS NGC fee for things like 200 and under or a lot of Morgans and Peace dollars. It's weird when people dismiss them but think ANACS is okay. I use them in several areas but market analysis takes a lot of typing depending on the area. It's not rare by the coin sense, but rarer than population reports suggest for a percentage. Many bulk submitters only have 70s slabbed which skews the percentages. Again though it depends on what specific thing you are asking about
Grading proof modern coins (struck since the late 1980's) and say, Morgan Dollars or Barber Quarters is as different as night and day. How do you compare something struck at more than 100 per minute and dumped into troughs with something double-struck and carefully removed by hand and packaged carefully into special containers? For modern coins, the grade range is 69 to 70. Anything lower than 70 is worth double melt. Sorry, but investing in such a thing brings its own special reward to those that will play that game.
Over the years I've written a lot about this subject, not just on this forum, and some of it published as well. But when you ignore all the hype, the advertising, the fan talk, and get right down to the nitty gritty - what I said above is quite true. And there are a few other interesting points that go along with it. For instance, back before ANACS and ICG swapped owners and staff members with each other there's an interesting observation that few ever noticed and even fewer ever mentioned that had to do with ANACS. People used to talk about how rare the 70 grade was, and back then it actually was in most cases. But back then who ever saw a 70 in an ANACS slab ? Nobody did because there weren't any. But even then it was said that NGC and PCGS had tougher standards than ANACS. And to make it even tougher it was PCGS policy that they did not assign the 70 grade. But they didn't really abide by it, they assigned more than their share even then. But ANACS didn't assign any ! And then you have the too numerous to count examples of coins in ANACS and ICG slabs being cracked out and sent to either NGC or PCGS and those coins getting upgraded from what they were in those ANACS and ICG slabs. And still today the same thing happens. And it also happens between NGC and PCGS themselves, each one routinely upgrades coins that were previously in the other's slab. So when you consider everything I said above and couple it with these things mentioned here, and more - well, the bottom line of what I said above moves right to the forefront - buy the coin, not the slab ! The coin doesn't change but the grades and the plastic changes all the time. The only time this constant changing of grades and slabs will ever stop is when all the TPGs agree to adopt and adhere to one universal and static set of grading standards. Something I first started writing about and proposing over 20 years ago. And the only way that will ever happen is when all of you, and all of you means everybody in numismatics not just those on this forum, demands it happens. And don't fool yourselves, you CAN demand it and get it. Why, how ? It's easy, it's because all of you are the ones with the money, YOU control the money - nobody else - YOU ! And he who controls the money gets what he wants in this business
