Problem Coins...

I guess the reason I'd do it is because of the Golden Rule ~~ Do Unto Other's As You'd Have Them Do Unto You. It's written down someplace... I'm not offering full restitution, but it beats nothing at all...

Take Care
Ben

 

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In all honesty I do not know what I would do for the dealer. But if I had a stolen coin and the police showed up I would turn it over. That it what I would hope others would do so the coin got to the rightful owner.

 

You tried to do what you thought was right Doug and the dealer was ungrateful and spiteful.....retrieve your box of coins and tell him to take a hike....

 

Doug, you keep adding extra variables to the story. Heck, I reckon by this time I'd be high-tailing it out of town with my family in tow to be perfectly honest. And, when getting to my (1/4 mile) long driveway, my wife would close and lock the gate to the house LOL... :vanish: That is a bit extreme, but you get the idea.

As for the dealer, well I'm sorry, this is my final offer of restitution. Either the 1/2 cash value of the coins or the box with similar coins instead. He can have one or the other PERIOD... I don't care if I'm black-balled at every coin exposition in the nation. I've never been to one and probably never will.

Take Care
Ben

 

You have good coin Karma if such a thing exists, I think it is very important. Now someone here will call you a sucker.........

 

Unless the officer has a warrant for the coins, I'd tell him that I'd see him in court.
I believe that under the law we have a protection from unlawful search & seizure.

Man, I wish that Roy were here for this one!

 

Heres the situation as I see it. If as a private citizen, I purchased a coin (not slabbed) and the police came to my door and told me I purchased a hot coin. They would first have to provide me with pictures of said coin previous to the theft, or diagnostic clues to the coin, otherwise one coin looks just like another coin in the same condition (roughly speaking) and their lack of proof means they can't prove that the stolen coin is my coin, and they could get lost.
As a dealer, I'm watching my dealer go through an ordeal right now. He purchased some modern junk from a guy about six months ago, paid less than $200 for it and put it out on his table for inexpensive modern stuff. This whole transaction was caught on his surveillance camera, from the walk-in to the purchase, to the placement. Two months later the cops show up and ask if he bought items from so and so, show him a picture. He says yes, he shows them the tape. They concur that it is the guy. They tell him, the property he bought was stolen. He says okay, no problem, I'll get the things. He gives them all the modern junk back, then they pull out a list and ask what about the rest. He tells them there is no rest, they give him the list and tell him according to the home owner, this is what was stolen and since the guy was in your shop, if you have any in stock we are confiscating them. So they proceed to take 3 1oz buffalos, 12 better date morgans, of course if he had more than one they took the better of the selection, and various other items. So what was a $200 junk buy has just turned into a $5000+ theft by the police in the name of "justice" He is still fighting with them to retrieve his property, and will probably do so for some time.

 

Let me guess, this shop is close to the Bohemian Restaurant and is on (I think) 13th street. It has bars on the the large windows in front...

Take Care
Ben

 

The Fourth Amendment requires a warrant for any seizure of property with regards to criminal cases only. Since this is obviously a criminal case, the Fourth Amendment applies. In this case, the officer must obtain a warrant. The warrant may only be issued upon probable cause AND affidavit by the officer (NORFED is the most recent example of this requirement under law).

Case law has upheld this requirement. There is judicial oversight with regards to seizure for a reason. it not only protects the actor of the State under local indemnification laws, but also the current holder of the questionable property and the "legal' owner (if different). Warrants are quite a trivial matter, especially since a magistrate of local jurisdiction has the authority to issue such a writ. The writ of warrant also "insures" that the actual item in question only is seized as well as safeguards against items being unlawfully seized.

The items would normally only be seized AS EVIDENCE in a criminal case. If the item is automatically returned to the self claimed "legal" owner without due process of law, then someone in the process has done something quite illegal. our country's governmental systems are set up with a set due process of law and checks and balances for a reason.

As American patriots, we must demand at all times that these processes and our rights are upheld to the fullest, or chance losing them.

 

Only with a warrant obtained upon due cause. "Due cause" does not mean that an officer or any other actor of the State may arbitrarily determine on his own merit that he has a good reason for doing something. The only time an officer may act without a warrant is in a situation of a crime in progress, NEVER during investigation!

An officer may detain (in my State it is considered arrest) a person during investigation, but faces the possibility of losing indemnification and criminal action for false arrest if he is found to have done so without a warrant. The Wyoming Constitution explicitly states "Arbitrary and absolute power does not exist in a republic". This is a coverall of the Federal "Bill of Rights".

Due process exists for a reason - to protect everybody involved. Warrants are a trivial thing for an officer to obtain. During the investigation process, there is more than ample time and ability to obtain such a warrant upon affidavit by the officer.

Case law has upheld (Maryland v. Dyson, 527 U.S. 465, 119 S. Ct. 2013, 144 L. Ed. 2d 442) that a warrant is required to seize property, as well as the fact that an officer is required to obtain such a warrant (lippo v. West Virginia, 528 U.S. 11, 120 S. Ct. 7, 145 L. Ed. 2d 16). That is not to say that a person may willingly give up the item in question. But in doing so, the individual should most definitely obtain a receipt and itemization of all items surrendered to the officer(s). This applies as well to a business establishment.

To argue that the police do not "need" a warrant just does not hold ground on this issue since case law as well as written public law state otherwise. Could you imagine if the FBI could have simply entered NORFED and Sunshine establishments without any warrant or oversight and taken whatever they wanted? Well, they didn't and couldn't because they needed a properly executed warranted defining the exact place and items to be seized.

demand your rights, or face losing them. Any true patriot will demand his rights and act accordingly.

 

What you refer to is a crime in progress More specifically, there was a recent Federal Circuit case from 2005 (don't have the case reference right off-hand) that upheld the seizure of the property "in plain view" was not a violation of the Fourth Amendment with a crime in progress. However, that case did not relieve the duty of the State to uphold the Fourth Amendment during the investigation and discovery of crime facts. A warrant is still needed to search and/or seize suspect property during investigation and discovery of crime facts, and usually takes less than 10 minutes in many municipalities in this area to obtain.

I should have taken the time to clarify that originally for you before I had to run out of here for the day, but I thought the above comment would clarify it enough.

The unfortunate thing about it today, however, is that there is sometimes good reason for people to be wary of arbitrary power without checks. In a small town like ours, we have a total staff of 20 officers including the chief, lt., 2 sargs, 3 dispatchers, and a hand full of beat cops. It's pretty easy to recognize the members of the force and you see them around town all the time out of uniform. But if you are in a city where those would not even cover a tenth of one shift, you could never be too careful.

Previously, there had been some issues in eastern Wyoming where people were posing as social workers and cops and "talking to children in private" using color of law as their only authority to do so (it is ruled a 4th Amendment violation for a State actor to question a child on private property without the guardian's permission). We received mailings from the State warning us as parents of this activity and to call the local police department if approached by anyone appearing to be a social worker or a police officer asking for access to children on the premises without a warrant.

Make sure the cop is really a cop, then make sure your rights are upheld to the fullest Co-operation is not a bad thing, just make sure that it's being done correctly with the proper checks in place.

 

I spoke with a dealer near me about this very thing.

He has had this happen to him on more than one occasion in his 25+ years in business. He has lost out everytime.

He just hands the coin (s) to the officer and writes it off. Most of the time the coins are just general nothing coins anyway. He said he has had one time been offered something that would stand out so to speak, he called the police and they arrested the guy before he left the store.

He says he gets burned ALOT with jewelry.

 

I call him on this lie and cease to have a relationship with him, business or otherwise.

 

Hopefully it will never happen to me as I'd be stubborn as hell and want real proof. If they could prove it I'd be out some money as I'd to have my stuff stolen like any other collector.

If my dealer(s) don't know you and you waltz in with some high dollar stuff they ask for ID and make you sign a form when selling. I know this as before I got back into the scene and times were tough I sold some junk silver and did not know the dealer at the time.
I was asked to provide ID, phone number and sign the form. No problem it was an honest transaction.

I have seen them turn many walk ins away. One turned away a Whitman of Lincolns. His wife does jewelry. When the guy left she told him there was an SVDB in the folder. He said he didn't feel right about it so end of story.