1941 WLH, MS-62??????

I grade with consistency not with fluctuation. There's no doubt they are the Kings of Market grading. Grade a coin conservative one day, and liberal the next. In essence they really don't grade the coin. "It's how many folks will believe what they say it is."

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

So in other words, youve NEVER seen a TPG mistake on any of the forums ?? If you did see a mistake, YOU would just shrug it off as they are the experts and you are the dummy?
Im curious, which is it then?? Are you a dummy? Or does the TPG just know how to grade better than all of us CT forumites?

 

VF25 or XF45?

 

I'll go right up the gut and say vf35. The only reason i wouldnt castigate PCGS for this one is because of the date / mm and the vam.
Did you confirm the variety? I would assume so, since your cherrypicker of the year finalist

Oops, i didnt mean to say, that. I meant, did u confirm which thornhead. I think i see the gouges in the denticles. So its probably 1b6b

 

No clue. Just got it in this week

 

I would most definitely go to Vam World and confirm....they've split up 1b6 even further. so you know as well as I do a small difference in the dies can mean a difference in money ×/-

 

While I hesitate to challenge your expertise on being "blatantly wrong", the TPGs provide professional opinions on the grade, you are some dude on the internet. If I am forced in picking either you or the TPGs, I'm picking the TPGs 100% of the time.

 

I just spent over an hour writing a response to this discussion and it was deleted by mistake (by me). I'll try to reply again when I calm down. Good discussion.

 

If I had you grade 500 coins, then another 100 coins, then gave you the first 500 to grade again months later you absolutely would not grade everyone the exact same as the first time.

That's not what they do at all and ignorant statements like that are what is being pushed back on.

The TPGs and CAC without question are better graders than cointalk

 

I’m not a professional coin grader, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

NO argument coming from me on that one.
I have tough standards, as you do. Every coin that I see you post has to meet or exceed the assigned grade given. I really don't see why you would go into a word battle for company's that do over/under grade. Yet still aren't held to higher standard.
My best guess is that it is all about the resale?

 

Yes, I have my own standards that sometimes deviate from those of the TPGs, and if the coin doesn’t meet my standards for the assigned grade, I don’t buy it.

However, just because the coin doesn’t meet my personal standards, that doesn’t mean the coin is overgraded. And what I don’t do is bash the TPGs in an attempt to delegitimize the service they provide because my standards differ from theirs. The TPGs are an integral part of the numismatic community and trust in them is essential for stability in the marketplace. There is a difference between fair criticism and the biased targeted attacks that are pervasive on this forum.

My philosophy is to strive to understand why the TPG graded a coin the way they did rather than blast them for being wrong.

 

I am sure that I would be more consistent than what you portray them to be.

Tell me what it is that they do? How does a coin go from a 65 one day to a 66 or 66+ the next day? Better yet a nice looking AU to a 63 or 64 someone screwed up? Did the Market change? Tell me it was the grader in the grading room, because in that case that is good quality control. Lets not forget about the finalizer, they must have fired him too.

 

I'm sure that you wouldn't be more consistent than a professional grader such as @Insider.

It's been explained a thousand times and grades don't just jump around the way you are trying to portray it. Grades have an acceptable range depending on how it's seen and despite what the internet tries to make it look like the overwhelming majority grade the same. Don't believe me crack some out and play the crack out game and you can see for yourself.

The difference between high AU and 63/64 is just how you view the friction on the coin, that's basic grading 101. Again though they don't just randomly jump around in the way you are saying

 

I explained this TO YOU less than a week ago in another thread, post #108 in the thread linked below.

Grading? Why bother?

I had this discussion with Doug at length in a thread I started 6 years ago. It is a very good read, see link below.

Guess the Assigned Grade--1924 Standing Liberty Quarter--Bonus!!!

Again, the TPGs don't change their grading standards, they simply use different standards than you and there is inherent subjectivity in grading.

 

IMO, there are several comments (from all posters) in this thread and the "Grading why bother" thread that I believe need further clarification and discussion. It wears me out just thinking of the time needed to comment. I'm still bummed out by what happened to my post yesterday and both threads keep expanding! Yikes!

 

Well here goes again...but first, hopefully, all of you will read this discussion:

Guess the Assigned Grade--1924 Standing Liberty Quarter--Bonus!!!

There are several comments in it that need explaing but that's for another time. For now, this comment by a member is not true: "Yes, that has always been my point because you, nor me, nor anybody else, can tell the difference between wear caused by roll friction, album friction, or any kind of friction, because there is no difference. Wear is wear ! It all looks exactly the same because it is all exactly same."

I claim to be able to tell the difference because different causes of luster loss on a coin's high points LOOK DIFFERENT using fluorescent light with a stereomicroscope set at 7X.

TypeCoin971793, posted: "So every single BU Morgan with bag friction (which is most of them) [ This is nonsense and you should know better. I see hundreds of Morgan dollars on a daily average in full MS without any loss of luster on their high points] is an overgraded AU? Even though they never circulated? If not, then you are the one operating at a double standard."

John Skelton, posted: "And so it goes. Another dispute over the grade of a coin. Wouldn't it be nice if we had some verifiable measures of such things as wear, reflectivity, and number and type of dings to allow us to get an idea of the condition of the coin?"

We do, unfortunately, it is was not followed by market makers when it came out and it is not followed now.

TypeCoin971793, posted: "It’s worth it if it grades MS-65 or higher, like I originally thought it would. I don’t understand your confusion. But another point of this thread is to show that the TPGs are inconsistent. A 63 should remain a 63, right? Nope!"

Nope. As long as coins are not graded strictly by the "old" definition of Uncirculated the AU/MS line will not exist. Additionally, as long as value enters the picture, and eye appeal reigns, the MS levels will also be blurred. Beautiful color hides a lot of flaws.

I'm also confused. Why would someone think a coin graded MS-63 would jump to a 65 (unless decades of gradeflation took place?). And please don't bother me with the many examples of "special" coins once graded XF that are now in MS slabs or the AU's that have become MS over the years. That is a different case than your coin.


TypeCoin971793, posted: "As I have said before, I give them a 95% accuracy by my standards (which I learned from expert dealers, forums, and even the TPGs), even accounting for subjectivity (+/- a point). That’s an A+ by most merit systems. My only argument is that because of the 5% they should not be blindly trusted (though I will add that you could pretty much put blind trust in the grade for moderns and Morgans). Arguing that they should be blindly trusted for every single coin like baseball says is folly."

"I am a staunch technical grader and always will be. The number (and/or designation) determines the state of preservation, and the market determines the value. That is how I will always think it should be."

AMEN! That woud cure 95% of the grading problem; however, we are dreaming. It will never happen in our lifetime! Additionally, I should not need to post the fact that all the TPGS overgrade, undergrade, and correctly grade by your standards and mine and EVEN by their own standards when an error is made.

TypeCoin971793, posted: "Luster and the lack of contact marks in the prime focal areas both technical aspects that contribute to both the grade and eye appeal. I am perfectly okay with an MS-65 coin with blazing MS-67 luster getting an MS-66. In my opinion, luster is the single most important aspect when it comes to a coin’s grade.

The presence/absence of toning, however, should not affect the grade unless it is clear that the surfaces have been messed with."

It is called eye-appeal. That has become the whole crystal ball supported by, luster, strike, and marks.

Pickin and Grinin, posted: "I grade with consistency not with fluctuation. There's no doubt they are the Kings of Market grading. Grade a coin conservative one day, and liberal the next. In essence they really don't grade the coin. "It's how many folks will believe what they say it is."

Sounds like grading a coin to me. BTW, a TPGS does not give a moment of thought to how many folks believe in their assigned grade. It is there grade at the time and obviously (see the OP) it is subject to change.


heavycam.monstervam, asked: "Or does the TPG just know how to grade better than all of us CT forumites?"

Perhaps they have the coin in hand and perhaps they have a company standard and perhaps the guys in the high paying job know a little more than many collectors/dealers.

heavycam.monstervam, posted: "I'll go right up the gut and say vf35."

This is not the 1950's or 1960's. Calling that 1921-S dollar VF ANYTHING prevents you from taking the Intermediate Grading Course yet! The amount of detail remaining is closer to an AU.

Pickin and Grinin, posted: "I am sure that I would be more consistent than what you portray them to be."

We all think that. You, me, and every poster here would be shocked by our actual inconsistency. That's why there is more than one grader on a coin and even with several graders and QC, MANY coins are graded incorrectly by even standard company policy.

I have much more to post but that's it for now.

 

@Insider

For the love of God man, learn how to use HTML tags. When you are quoting someone use the following format:

(quote=member name)quoted content(/quote)

Now change the parenthesis to brackets ( to [ and viola:

 

As soon as you highlight a posters statement. It pulls up a quote. (click)Simple and easy.

When you are ready to respond click Insert quotes. This lets everyone know there is a response.