Guess the Grade - Morgan

Oh jeez. Ok, what about THE OTHER coin in the thread then ???? Lets all ignore THAT one since, a member has actually seen it in-hand and can verify its no 65. Oh thats right, that one doesnt look as good in the glamour shots. You can easily see all the wood chipper marks on the obverse. Better not comment on that one, because that weak argument doesnt hold water anymore. I hate when that happens

 

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The other coin he posted is a PCGS CAC 65. If he doesn't like the grade that's his right, but PCGS CAC opinion carries more weight and someone disagreeing with both of them doesn't mean the grade is wrong.

 

Those who can actually grade a Morgan in real life, know better. Pretty sure the sticker just means that you could sell your coin to CAC for the market value of a 65. If that coin were blast white, NO WAY it gets the seal of approval.

 

Do you believe you are better at grading Morgans than PCGS and CAC?

And if that coin was a half dollar it wouldn't be a Morgan, just like if someone drilled a hole in it it would be a details coin. Well it's not any of those things and it does have that color and that color is part of the eye appeal and the grade.

 

Maybe not, but im good enough to point out mistake after mistake after mistake after...
(Insert Energizer bunny)

If Grandma had balls, she'd be Grandpa.
If a frog had wings.............

 

Only if you think your skills exceed CAC and PCGS combined....

To call it a mistake you have to believe you know more.

 

I agree with you. I'm just saying that's how in their infinite wisdom they market grade. These are commodities to them, not coins.

 

TPS's and CAC are still and always just market trusted opinions, and we all know about OPINIONS.

 

The 1886 @ddddd posted definitely looks like one of the few complete misses by the PCGS and CAC combo. That would make it the third one I've seen that no matter how I try to justify it I can't - that's not me saying I'm a better grader than the experts it's saying the experts make mistakes from time to time it's impossible not to with what they're tasked with. And that's perfectly okay because that combo has made me feel safe spending 4 figures + on coins from pictures only even though of course they're not gonna bat .1000. I know @baseball21 knows that too and I appreciate his efforts defending the TPGs because IMO they have an absolutely impossible job to do and I think they do it incredibly well the vast majority of the time - incredibly might be an understatement too. They get completely #$!^ on for their mistakes when the reality is compared to the amount they grade they're few and far between. No one posts "look at this perfectly graded MS65 coin great job PCGS!" or there'd be 14,000 threads a day they post "HOW COULD PCGS MISS THIS" instead.

I wish I could buy all my coins in person (two of my favorite coins happen to be the ones I picked up at Central States - my only coin show - there's just no substitute for holding it in hand) but that's impossible and that's why I really appreciate the TPGs and CAC even with their occasional misses. I'd have quit long ago if not for them.

Just my

 

Sure PCGS and CAC get more right than wrong. The issue is that too many people show a blind faith to these entities. As seen here, people will defend them endlessly, even if a mistake was made. On the other hand, these people will talk down any other coin or even a slab without the sticker. Sometimes showing a little humility is all that is needed.

 

Also, I can agree that the TPGs can’t get everything correct, but the way they handle their mistakes is very important. I’m seeing more examples where they try to find an out, with “mechanical error” being a popular one. If they just admitted these mistakes and made it right (without the customer having to jump through hoops), then that would go a long way towards solidifying their reputation.

 

I don't think anyone puts blind faith in them, it may come off that way when they defend them often but again that's because they get so much unwarranted crap the defenders sometimes jump to the opposite extreme in reaction. Threads exactly like this pop up all the time spotlighting their mistakes. I'm definitely a defender of them who realizes they make mistakes at the same time. I mean picture sitting at a desk all day with literally 100 coins an hour coming past your desk that you have to give an opinion on - that seems insanely impossible to me no matter how good you are.

Let me ask you this and don't take it personally - didn't you kinda put blind faith in buying that 1886? In both the TV and the GC pics it's a clear dog to me.

 

And that’s why I said, it’s not the initial mistake but the handling of the mistake that shows true character.

As for the 1886, I didn’t put any blind faith in buying it. I thought it was around a point overgraded when I first saw it on GC. I wanted to see how off it really was in hand, so I set a limit of where I was comfortable not being buried and that was enough to win it. It was an educational purchase (similar to how people might buy contemporary counterfeits to study).

 

I get that for sure. I almost asked to pay for shipping it back and forth so I could learn a bit about GCs pictures too since I’m always browsing there but that’s a hassle. I’ve definitely bought iffy coins in the past to learn about images from places (HA and DLRC specifically).

 

I’ve bought from GC before and I trust their pictures. This wasn’t an example where I was doubting their pictures. And I was not planning on returning it either.

Although I would say it may be worth it to purchase some less expensive coins to test out the various auction companies in order to get a feel for their photos.

 

This coin is not overgraded at MS65. It has MS63 surfaces with MS68 luster & eye appeal from the photos. Like baseball21 said, just because you don't like the grade, doesn't mean it was wrong. If both PCGS and CAC saw this coin in hand and graded the coin MS65, I'm certainly going to defer to their in hand assessment than a bunch of guys on an internet forum who disagree based on two widely varying photos.

If this thread has proven anything, it shouldn't be that the TPGs make egregious mistakes, rather, it should be that attempting to grade coins from photos is dangerous. Both of the coins in this thread are toned monsters where the eye appeal and luster make up for inferior surfaces. Just because you guys think that surface preservation is grade limiting, doesn't mean you are right.

Furthermore, my constant defense of the TPGs isn't based on grading ignorance; I will put my grading skills up against anyone on this forum. I defend them because they are better graders than I am, period. I have actually submitted coins to both NGC & PCGS and learned something from almost every submission.

If the TPGs were rampantly overgrading coins, then each and every one of you "expert graders" on this forum should be able to exploit that by purchasing raw coins at what you perceive the correct grade to be, submitting the coins for grading, and then cashing in on all the overgraded coins you get back. Until you can do this, consistently, you need to pipe down.

 

I never said everything is overgraded or a mistake. However, there are some egregious errors coming out. I would love to take advantage of it, but it’s not that simple. To reap the major benefits of overgrading one needs to be part of the insiders or select dealers. It’s no coincidence that David Hall’s family member was doing 100k+ of business with the company annually.

Also it’s nice to know that this conversation has struck enough of a nerve with you that you need me to “pipe down”.

 

You all need to pipe down, and the idea that "insiders or select dealers" get better grades is just another in the long line of conspiracy theories that collectors have about the TPGs because they get spread on forums just like this one.

Neither coin you posted in this thread qualifies as an egregious error. You know damn well that both of these coins were market graded up based on superlative eye appeal/luster despite surfaces that are not typical for the assigned grade. There was no mistake, and you can show the proper "humility" by admitting that you are wrong.

 

The price of the coin has very little to do with the grade, and everything to do with the eye appeal based on the toning. Acting like what you paid is based at all on the grade of the coin is disingenuous.

 

So a certain someone is always correct? Recall the star Walker? Someone called it a grading error. And someone kept insisting that semi-pl or exceptional luster won’t be awarded a star despite being quoted and told otherwise by multiple sources.

But hey if it makes you feel better, I’ll say everything that you desire:
I can’t grade, PCGS/CAC is the best, and long live market grading.

You win! Enjoy it!