Bronze disease

Hi guys, on one of my new coins there is definitely bronze disease, since with a toothpick the powder comes off. The bronze disease is not that severe but still dangerous ofcourse.

The coin:


Now I have contacted the seller and he apologised and said if I want I can send it back and everything is refunded, that's not a problem he said. Now I am wondering if I should do this?

I really like the coin that's why I'm doubting but I never really treated bronze disease. The powder comes easily off and I was wondering if I just scrape all the powder off and leave it in distilled water for like 2-3 weeks, will it be removed or is there a high chance it comes back? If there is a high chance it comes back then I will just send return it, because the coin will give me no enjoyment otherwise.

Thank you.

 

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Normally I would say send it back. But if you really like it and want to treat it and keep it, after the distilled water you may want to treat it with some Verdicare.

The BD on your coin doesn't look too bad, so it should be an easy fix. Will it ever come back? Maybe, but if you treat it properly then most likely it will never be an issue again.

 

Well, there are several issues. Most dealers wont take a return if you alter the coin. Reasons why are various, but the main issue is that the coin might come back to them in an unsellable condition if the alterations are severe. But I dont see this coin as being very severe in its state. I think that if you treat it as you mention it should be OK. Its a very attractive coin and its issues are small. If done properly you should have no issues, but monitor it for a few years to see if any problems re-occur. Personally I would keep it, but if you are not confident in your abilities return it. Its a common enough type (though some monograms are rare) and I am sure you will find another, but its entirely up to you.

 

I actually like the coin the way it is. I have had BAD bronze disease on a couple I have had for over 30 years and the disease has never progressed. I did scratch some of the loose powder off with a toothbrush followed by gentle rubbing with a soft cotton cloth. It may not be a problem even in your lifetime, actually. But if you want, soak and Verdicare it.

I wouldn't return the coin.

 

Mechanically remove as much as you can then bake in an oven for around 10 minutes between 300-400 degrees F. This has a chance of darkening the coin, though.

 

The crystallization on this coin is unusual. Perhaps some of the experts here can authenticate it BEFORE the OP changes its appearance.

 

There is nothing unusual about this coin. I see no crystallization.

 

There is no crystallization and the coin is perfectly fine.

 

Thank you guys for the responses, I decided to keep the coin and treat it lightly to remove the bronze disease, I wish it was verdigris because it does has a nice aesthetics.

I think you mean these kind of spots? Is it something to worry about?
It should be highly unlikely a very common bronze coin like this is faked?

 

The greyish green doesn’t look like BD to me, or is it bright green in reality? Also, it is only a little bit, if BD it is easy to treat. Maybe isolate the coin for a year and see what happens.

 

No, nothing to worry about.

...

I'm glad you're keeping the coin because now we know it will be well cared for . I'd soak the coin in distilled water (several changes of water), gently dislodge loose green powder, dry it thoroughly, and apply Verdicare. I think it will be fine after that. Just store it in a low humidity environment and check on it periodically.

 

I dont know what you are looking at. There isn't anything there. Relish in this truth. Dont let one 'whacko' put any doubt to you. I assume you are new to ancients? There are plenty of weirdos out there, most of which know absolutely nothing but pretend to know all. Your coin is fine.

 

Thank you for your responses again, I appreciate it a lot. @Ken Dorney Yes I am new to both ancients and coin collecting , I started around 2,5 months ago.

 

Well, for collecting for that small time you got yourself a very nice coin. Dont let the 'Chicken Littles' of the hobby get you down. It a lovely coin, plain and simple. And it remains to be seen that it has BD (I dont think so, but it might).

 

I must admit that I just came to the thread and was reading down it, and the cross-hatching insider noticed caught my eye also as it appeared like metallic crystal structure. I googled for photos and found some, not exactly like these ( longer , less crosshatching", but appearing similar . Does anyone have other references I can read, so I don't say something wrong also.
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/moonmoth/crystal_coins.html

Thanks Jim

 

I'm no metallurgist, though there are some collectors who actually are (but I dont think they are on CT). Does copper and bronzes crystallize? I dont know, maybe, probably, positively? But its not what we would really think anyway. Most of what the article you point to is relegated to silver specifically. And in most experiences (strangely, there is definitely a PhD paper in there somewhere) with Greek silver fractions specifically. It rarely occurs in Roman coinage. Still, I dont see it on this coin, though there are some tiny marks which might suggest it. Who know? As I said I am not a metallurgist or chemist.

 

Have any of you tried an electrolytic method for removing chlorides to stop bronze disease? I have had success using that method to stop rust on iron meteorites. Based on my understanding of the chemistry, it should work on bronze as well. The only risk would seem to be a loss of patina, but if the BD is severe it seems a small price to pay.

 

I would not do this unless you are an expert. Many coins have been literally destroyed in this manner (if one doesn't know what they are doing they can dissolve a coin completely and totally).

 

I can definitely confirm crystalization is an endemic problem with fractional Greek coins, and something you must accept if you are going to be adding a lot of these little coins to your collection. Its not the end of the world though, most crystalized coins wont break unless you bump them hard against something. Its really rare to get a coin to just crack from simple handling (it happens, but its not a common occurence). I definitely have never had any of my crystallized tiny little Greek coins break.

 

Ken Dorney, posted: "There is nothing unusual about this coin. I see no crystallization."

Sallent, posted: "There is no crystallization and the coin is perfectly fine."

Hopefully, thanks to Desertgem I think both of you and other members will now be able to see what I'm referring to. It is not rare to see crystallization on silver ancients. In fact, a pattern of blocks is usually a good sign. However, I cannot recall seeing it on any bronze ancient.

This is all I wish to add. The surface of this coin is unusual. When this type of crystallization (I named it "Spider-Web" in the 1970's) is found on a vintage 17th Century to 20th Century coin it was usually a sign that the coin may not be authentic. If a genuine coin on a cast planchet becomes chemically etched due to its environment, parts of its surface are eaten away and can mimic the spider-web pattern of crystals. I have several counterfeit ancients that are 20th Century counterfeits with this characteristic pattern.

Ken Dorney, posted: "I'm no metallurgist, though there are some collectors who actually are (but I dont think they are on CT). Does copper and bronzes crystallize? I dont know, maybe, probably, positively? But its not what we would really think anyway. Most of what the article you point to is relegated to silver specifically. And in most experiences (strangely, there is definitely a PhD paper in there somewhere) with Greek silver fractions specifically. It rarely occurs in Roman coinage. Still, I dont see it on this coin, though there are some tiny marks which might suggest it. Who know? As I said I am not a metallurgist or chemist."

Yes, copper and bronze can crystalize - take a look at some cast counterfeits. However, the paper seems to back up my experience. I have not seen crystallization on any gold or bronze ancient. I'm sure examples must exist but they must be rare!

Now, try this...hold your right hand flat, palm down. spread your fingers. Do the same with your left hand. move your hands together so they overlap at an angle making a cross-hatch. Now look for a similar effect on the coin, especially under the horse.

Oops, I see the red circles. Yes, we call that crystallization.