Brazilian national museum fire

Just read about the fire and how many untold items have been lost. Reminds me a lot of fires and wanton destruction in "source countries" and museums over the years, from the ISIS destruction to coins rotting in basements in Cairo to aggressive cleaning and simply lost coins.

I know many here may consider donating their collection to a museum when they pass, but I would ask you to reconsider. I simply believe having coins loved and sitting in 100 different collections around the world is a much safer place for them. Simply put, most museums do not know or care about coins, do not properly display them or allow the public to see them. Additionally, if we all donate our collections to museums, what are the next generation of collectors going to collect, state quarters?

I know what happened in Brazil was a tragedy, and of course many important things should be in museums. I am not trying to piggyback on a tragedy, it is just that this unfortunate thing has brought up again the issue of where coins truly are safest long term from destruction, and where they will be most appreciated.

Just my opinion.

 

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I agree. When there are collections like this,

"discovered" in a college library book case, after laying dormant for 40 years because of disinterest in ancient numismatics, when the Classical Studies program passes hands; I'd say there are some issues in institutional ownership. The guy that donated these coins would be turning in his grave if he knew the College didn't know about them for 40 years.

Generally speaking, coins will never be cared for as well as they would be in private hands.

 

Agreed, but work must be done re-educating younger folk regarding the fact that pieces of ancient history can and should be owned and appreciated by private individuals. In other online communities (Roman Army Talk comes to mind) there exists a pervasive and unyielding element of forum culture that regards private ownership of anything as tantamount to grave-robbery. This seems in-keeping with the attitudes injected in the minds of my fellow archaeology students a decade ago; that "No one should personally own history, as history belongs to everyone" and only enlightened, ivory-tower dwelling publicly-funded professionals are worthy of handling, interpreting and managing the residues of history.

It's similar to the attitudes forced upon children regarding hiking around in nature, that one should "Leave nothing but footprints, take nothing but pictures" which sadly isolates a young and open mind from wondrous knowledge about the manifold food, medicine and practical uses of the wild plants and fungi in the world around them.

 

I suspect many here will agree with @medoraman , I certainly do.

 

Unfortunately, there has been a trend in the archeology community that ALL artifacts should be kept in the hands of trained professionals to discourage looting and damage to archeological sites. While I cannot say how pervasive this idea is, one can find blogs on the subject and I recall that a few years ago, some archeological publications refused to publish papers that referenced coins without documented context (i.e., found by an archeologist). If you feel strongly about this, then I suggest looking at the Ancient Coin Colletors Guild site http://www.accg.us/home.aspx as well as researching other sources both within the numismatic and archeological communities.

Well said. IMO, some archeologists would rather see these artifacts deteriorate than trust them to the great unwashed masses of history loving individuals. Apparently, if you don't have that piece of paper allowing you to put Dr. in front of your name, then you aren't capable of doing research on these objects. Once again, just my opinion

What's wrong with selling some of numerous 4th Century AE coinage and other minor artifacts to help fund the study and preservation of culturally significant objects?

 

This really is a shame and a great shame on us in Brazil. The museum was the largest Museum of Natural History in Latin America. There were unique items such as a large collection of Egyptian mummies, the oldest Homo sapiens fossil found in the Americas (12,000 years), as well as historical documents and articles that tell the country's history since the discovery in 1500. By "luck", the largest collection of coins is in the National Historical Museum, also in Rio de Janeiro, where there are unique Brazilian and Portuguese medieval pieces. They are still safe ...Everything lost in a few hours. In addition, this was the year the museum was 200 years old. The building itself was the palace of the Portuguese royal family when it lived in Brazil during the period of the Napoleonic Wars. We celebrate with ashes.
Very sad. The money needed to keep the museum safe would be 600,000 reais per year, something around $ 150,000. A reticent film extolling the political skills of a corrupt acquaintance here cost about 3x more. A country music show, our Brazilian version of Country Music, left with the blessings for 3,000,000.00 reais, all financed with public money.
But a museum, well, it's only a matter of school-age children and a bunch of nerds ...
And so, my country is sinking, turning into a new Venezuela ...

 

It would send a problematic message to the unwashed masses that individuals have a right to own old things. We can't allow that, now can we?! Besides, we'll get free money from the taxpayers regardless of what we do or the quality of our work!

 

I have read as much sir. I am, as are many of us here who love history, deeply saddened by your country's loss. I truly hope even more items are able to be salvaged or found out stored elsewhere in the coming days.

Hopefully this WILL be a wakeup call to Brazil and countries around the world to treat their antiquities better, but I simply do not have much hope. That was the reason for my post originally.

 

No worse than all the cultural items over the years that have ben "repatriated" to Egypt, Iraq, Syria, etc., only to be burned or blown up by revisionist squads working for (fill in the blank) terrorist organization(s).

 

I was sad to read this news yesterday, it's truly sickening, same with the ISIS blowing shi* up for no reason.

Argentina isn't far behind either from what I have read.

 

I hold a strange dual citizenship. I’m a person with the proper piece of paper and “right” initials before my name. I am also a private collector. I stand at the intersection of many of these debates and feel the pull of both communities. I have often thought I would leave my coins to a university, but the prospect that they would sit in trays in a store room for decades is sadly real. Perhaps the wish to bequeath them as a unified collection to an institution represents a futile effort to exercise some control over a collection from beyond the grave—an impulse as human as it is absurd.

I am curious—where did that small but significant collection come from? What institution had it in its forgotten library bookcase?

 

Here is an article on the matter. I've seen maybe 20 of the coins pictured, online.

 

A tragedy for sure. I have been to the Cairo Museum many times and have marveled at the amount of items not on display, including no coins. One would think they would have a tremendous collection of Ptolemaic coins. Other items I'm aware of are improperly stored, including many mummies infected by fungi, insects, and whatnot. As another person with academic initials in front of his name, and who straddles the world of academia and business, it is a sad state of affairs.

One can witness a large collection of Ptolemaic coins at the Stanford Art Museum. It is likely that the vast majority of small finds - coins, ushabtis, and other items are squirreled out of Egypt by treasure hunters and local villagers and end up on the auction market. Is it true that private collectors care more for these finds than overworked staffs at museums? That may be the case.

 

Each ancient coin is an ambassador to modern people to encourage them to learn about and care about the ancient world. If no one in the modern world cares about ancient times who will take the classes from the academics or pay for their salaries?

There are millions if not billions of ancient coins. Most museums already have more than they ever display or care about. It is really a missed opportunity to communicate physically with the public that the ancient world existed and is worth knowing about. There are trends in academia, ideas that are in, ideas that are out. Someone in academia needs to have the courage to realize that trying to hoard all the ancient coins is really just going to backfire on classical studies.

John

 

All leaving your collection to a museum or university will accomplish is to ensure that:

a) other collectors will be deprived the privilege of owning your coins after you are gone.
b) The museum or university will likely store it in a drawer or basement and forget about it for decades.
c) Once they discover your collection, the museum or university may end up selling it anyways and pocketing the profit (see the several large online auction houses that are auctioning off coins on behalf of a consignor museum or university selling off excess coins).

 

I find the threat of what you describe to be real. But your rhetoric is totalizing. My colleague's son attends the University of Chicago. He told me an anecdote of his son studying a Greek play and having a representative from the UC special collections bring in artifacts relevant to the world of the play for class discussion. I do believe some institutions can wisely use special collections to enrich the classroom. How many do? I don't know. But those that do might find themselves the beneficiaries of private collections if donors believed their artifacts could enrich teaching and research.

 

Museums are collections just as ours are. Simon Bendall's Byzantine collection has been stolen twice I recall (different collections), most recently last year, and none of the great rarities are likely to appear again anytime soon. Perhaps even melted. It's a story we've heard often enough.

I also think that some small and mass produced items such as coins are better preserved by being as widely scattered among collectors as possible, whereas other resources such as the Parthenon Marbles or other large or unique items are actually better in a dedicated world class museum. I wouldn't be in favour of the BM selling off bits of the Parthenon Marbles.

The generic solution to world museums especially in countries with resource constraints (ehh… that's every country) is some form of resource sharing among all interested parties. The collections in the ANS and BM are doubtless well secured and are also marvelously accessible to everyone. But wouldn't it be nice if there were a world body that could levy very small amounts to help provide basic security and physical protection (physical conservation, fire, weather etc.) to outstanding world heritage sites and museums. Switzerland and Norway might then pay a little more and Botswana and … Brazil … a little less to help ensure mankind's heritage is preserved. One such body exists. UNESCO. It's got essentially zero budget ($4m last year. Not billion but million) and the US withdrew in 2011. When there's basic crises of poverty at a museum's doorsteps such as in Brazil it's a terrific dilemma to send more money to museums. So we should all help. For the future, this time all is lost.

 

I´m back (HolidayS!), but...

!!!

@Multatuli : Inacreditável, uma tragédia irreparável para a história da sua nação e da Humanidade. Não acredito. Sem palavras, meu amigo. Força!

 

@RAGNAROK Not sad about the big butterfly display going up in flames....butterflies are creepy, but everything else is a huge tragedy. The Pompey and Egypt wings alone in that video almost brought me to tears, and those native artifacts and fossils too. Hard to believe all of that is lost forever. Someone must answer for this. It is pure negligence that such an important place can burn down like that.

 

That just makes it more sad.