You're crazy, RC! Die-match from a line drawing?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Roman Collector, Sep 1, 2018.

  1. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    I've long wanted one of these Roman provincials from Amphipolis with the Artemis Tauropolos reverse types and I had the opportunity to pick up one at a reasonable price. They come in a variety of sizes and with different obverse inscriptions, so attributing worn specimens (and few are high grade) can prove tricky. I can solidly attribute this one as BMC 5, p. 52, 73:

    Augustus Amphipolis.jpg
    Augustus, 27 BC - AD 14.
    Roman provincial AE 23.
    Macedon, Amphipolis, 10.25 g, 23.3 mm, 1 h.
    Obv: ΚΑΙΣΑΡ ΘΕΟΥ ΥΙΟΣ, bare-head, right.
    Rev: ΑΜΦΙΠΟΛΙΕΙΤΩΝ, Artemis Tauropolos with inflated veil, riding on bull galloping right.
    Refs: BMC 5, p. 52, 73; Sear Greek Imperial 29.

    Here is the listing in BMC:

    Augustus Amphipolis BMC listing.JPG


    But I'm going to propose something radical -- that the coin is a die-match to the BMC specimen, on the basis of the line-drawing! The British Museum has, unfortunately, not yet photographed the Roman provincials in their collection and I am unfortunately unable to compare my coin to their specimen.

    Note how the ΥΥΙΟΣ in the obverse inscription, particularly the close proximity of the iota and omicron, matches the example in the line drawing. Note also how the IΣAP at the end of ΚΑΙΣΑΡ behind the bust matches my coin:

    Augustus Amphipolis BMC die match.jpg

    Am I crazy? Tell me what you think -- I'd also love to see any of your Artemis Tauropolis coins! Post anything you feel is relevant!
     
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  3. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Nice sleuthing! I don't think it is crazy to declare a die match based on quality line drawings. It's probably more accurate than trying to match ex Dattari coins to their pencil rubbings :confused:.
     
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  4. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    I note also the rather bulbous forelock. But there are differences, too: above the head (dots & spacing), size of forehead. I doubt you can go further than "I speculate this may be a die match, pending a comparison of photos." So no, not crazy, just a bit loopy. :)

    I only have some stuff that is tangentially relevant, but since I recently picked up two Augustus provincials, I'll post 'em:

    This one was misidentified by the seller as being from Smyrna, but it's actually a rare issue from Phokaia. (A rather odd portrait style for Augustus, I think.)
    Screen Shot 2018-09-01 at 1.45.45 PM.jpg

    And the common issue from Philippi:
    Screen Shot 2018-09-01 at 1.44.40 PM.jpg
     
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  5. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Crazy? --- like a fox.

    Mine is a completely different legend. From the last FSR sale AE22 6.46g
    ΚΑΙΑΡΟΣ ΣΕΒΑΣΤ
    pb0048fd2867.jpg

    I really need to do a better photo to show the obverse legend more clearly. The glossy patina makes it hard to see in this photo.
     
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  6. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    That one from Phokaia is NICE!! And it IS an odd portrait style for Augustus.

    I have one of those common ones from Philippi, too. It's one of those that doesn't photograph well and we say "looks better in hand"! ;)

    Augustus Philippi.jpg
     
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  7. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Another interesting aspect about these coins is the pre-Christian "Christian language" in its inscription. Mine says ΚΑΙΣΑΡ ΘΕΟΥ ΥΙΟΣ, which means "Caesar, son of god."

    Yours says ΚΑΙΑΡΟΣ ΣΕΒΑΣΤ, meaning "Caesar, revered one (Augustus)." It's good to be reminded that Augustus is a title. ΣΕΒΑΣΤΟΣ reminds us of that fact.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
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  8. Pishpash

    Pishpash Well-Known Member

  9. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    Nice one, Pish! Note that if you click the little mountain/sun image in the toolbar, you can just paste in the url of an image and it will look like this (well, two side by side here):

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    (This is Pish's coin!)
     
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  10. Pishpash

    Pishpash Well-Known Member

    I didn't know that, thanks!
     
  11. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    There is nothing even slightly Christian about this legend since the god referred to here is Caesar. This legend is a translation of CAESAR DIVI F.
     
  12. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Hence the use of the phrase pre-Christian and placing Christian language in quotes.
     
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  13. Pellinore

    Pellinore Well-Known Member

    I have this Amphipolis coin, a bit scyphate, with riderless bounding bull and two neat monograms, but the obverse is unclear, probably a bit barbarous. Are these coins known in barbarized form? 18 mm, 7.05 gr.

    1702 Amphi.jpg
     
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  14. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    I don't think this is barbarous; I think you're looking at pre-Roman coinage from the city. That is probably Zeus on the obverse (I think he's bearded). The city issued coins with Zeus on the obverse and a bull bounding right with part of the city name in monogram form below. This is similar to yours:

    2570521.jpg
     
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  15. Andrew McCabe

    Andrew McCabe Well-Known Member

    I've found a few provenance matches from line drawings. That's easier of course as the strike and shape help, as well as the die design.
     
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  16. Pellinore

    Pellinore Well-Known Member

    Thanks @Roman Collector! You are right, there's a beard under the face, clear enough. And the monograms fit well enough. It sold for the exact amount I paid.
     
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