NGC Damaged My Medal - What do I do?!?

I agree that it's wise to take photos prior to submitting, but the fact is that the before photos are nowhere near as clear and detailed as the after, and for this reason alone they're not sufficient evidence to conclude any sort of shipping issue or wrongdoing on NGC's part. In particular, do notice how the OP went out of his way to photograph the medal in a manner that would clearly show the issues in the after photos. This isn't a bad thing, of course, but does go to show that direct comparisons cannot reasonably be made based upon the provided images. Case in point....

Before...



After...



If anything, perhaps this should be viewed as a lesson on how important it may be to take highly detailed photos prior to submitting if this is something that concerns the individual collector.

 

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Yes I agree, highly detailed photos should always be taken at every stage - of every coin if it's practical or at least those of significant value to you. And, I get that the graders may not have damaged the coin themselves, but I'm suspicious of the Receiving department...

The person that wouldn't answer whether or not security footage was reviewed at the medal's receipt was a supervisor in the receiving department (I could call out this person's name and position, but that is probably of bad form, given the relatively lower severity of the issue in the grand scheme of things). I asked about that twice and both times it was ignored - the second time altogether ignored. I don't think it was worth it for them to sift through the footage though - security cameras are probably there purely for theft prevention or other more serious misconduct in the workplace. I just didn't get that impression when I heard about the amount of security they have at NGC. I was thinking that their computers have the precise time stamp of when my medal was first received, and they can scroll back to that time on their security footage.

And, I do use NGC often, at least for a non-dealer regular guy (the last six months was 9 invoices, and only in the 5 figure range of total declared value in the last year or so), but I felt / was ignored. Maybe if you're a bigger dealer then you'd get a better response. Unfortunately, NGC probably considers this as bullion as others have noted, but I don't think that I can find another medal like this, at least not for some time. Only 1,000 were made of these medals and that was back in 1987.

 

@iPen definitely not the graders fault. Ive seen on coinweek and on the NGC site how the graders grade. They hold the edges and everything and don't touch the fields. So the question now is those marks....how did they get there.

1. They were already there. People are right after I read this whole thread, your photos aren't conclusive enough to show that they weren't already there.
I see a lot of unboxing videos, etc on youtube and people say, this coin should get MS66 and then they get it back as AU details or whatnot. People tend to overlook and perhaps maybe you overlooked those issues or didn't notice it before?? who knows

2. shipping damage or something. Yes you packaged it well. Was it alone or had other coins with it? Maybe it fell out of the flip or rattled around? Have you seen how the post office handles packages sometimes? They will throw it around seriously lol.

3. Some carelessness in the receiving department? Perhaps when the coin got to NGC and they opened it, the coin fell out of the box or something? Instead of carefully opening and taking the contents out slowly, it got dumped? who knows. If there are other coins with this order perhaps other coins were put next to it and it got rubbed or whatnot. Even a security camera couldn't definitively tell you that at a certain point it got that specific damage, rub mark, etc.

 

I consider this a case of “not all digital photos are created equal”. We ALL need to get over this idea of skimping on resolution and file formats. Want to have your digital photos be taken seriously? Turn off the auto white balance, auto exposure, use manual focus, and shoot TIF’s or RAW and knock it off with the phone cams and JPG files.

Want to know why I almost never post my own original photos on CoinTalk? Because the lowest res, crummiest images I ever take are still WAAAAAAAY too huge for this site's software, that's why. Shrinking them down is a pain where I sit.

Yes, my photo library is several tens of terabytes. This is what happens when a film shooter is forced into digital. I spent decades with Kodachrome 25 and 40 Type A, Ektar 25, Fujichrome Pro 50D, and Velvia. Quality matters.

 

Obviously I'm leaning towards #3 lol...

Given the huge 5 oz size of the medal and the immaculate condition it was in, any scratches would have been immediately noticed. I always check all coins I receive with a loupe, so this would not have been overlooked. I'm beginning to think that my "over-packaging" ironically caused the Receiving department worker to get frustrated and inadvertently damage the medal while trying to unpackage it. But, they seem to not want to take a look at or consider that video evidence.

In any case, I will be taking several super high quality macro photos of all of my coins before submission. I usually do take macro photos anyway to post on this forum before submission, but not to all of my coins - lesson learned.

 

Ipen yep, take those macro shots for your records/evidence. Again sorry this happened and i hope your next submissions award you some great grades!

 

And of course this would be the advice of a person who works for a TPG !
ICG I do believe......correct me if I am wrong.
Again the squeaky wheel gets the oil, and corporate America loves to roll over the little guy.... and that guy is the one who rolls over to their code of conduct.
Don't stop your quest to receive compensation for your loss.
And a statement "to move on rather than destroy a relationship "
You didn't destroy a relationship they did... in good Faith you paid for a service ,they didn't perform.and then damaged your property.
It's the voice that sez oh...." it's not me so ".... just live and learn "Bull"
That same voice would be screaming like a little girl if the shoe was on the other foot!
Again it your coin your choices...to seek out payment for damages or allow this to drop.

 

@Paddy54 - the squeaky wheel can also get a cease and desist order, or worse, a defamation lawsuit.

IMO, and it's worth exactly what you're paying for it, and based solely on the evidence provided (by only one side of the story), I believe the medal was in the same condition when received as it was when the OP sent it. I base that on the photos provided by the OP.

If you look at the 2 pics that @BooksB4Coins posted above, you can see anomalies in the same areas on the face of Liberty in the first image as you see clearly in the second. Along with the angled shots to highlight imperfections that aren't apparent in the head-on shots makes me think they were there before being sent. How many times have you seen something on a coin that you only see at one angle and not at another?

And to make a suspicious person's suspicions worse, the OP had many of these medals for submission (7 IIRC). How can he prove with any degree of certainty that the images he is providing of the pre-submission are of the same medal he claims was damaged? Does he have more medals that weren't submitted, but were photographed for inventory purposes and they have been mixed up?

I'm not trying to bash the OP, or suggest any lying or deceit, but there is enough doubt in my mind that he wouldn't get my vote in a civil case. Think of me as one of the 12 peers that would evaluate the evidence provided, and that my thoughts are just one way everything could be perceived.

 

Your first paragraph is of course true...and it can also back fire as it would be to their benfit to make the customer happy!
Word of mouth will destroy by planting a seed in the hearts and minds of others,that no advertising dollars can buy off.
My take on this is strictly one of it or get off the pot!
Trying such in an open forum is nothing more then a circus of opions including mine!
My point is simple if you have a case run with it....if not why waste the time of others or your own for that matter.
Most companies who are smart would offer a resolve rather then allow this to be held in a court of opions.
They also would keep an open dialog until resolved.

 

I worked management at big box retail (home improvement) for 6+ years and the "just pay the customer so he won't get mad" mentality always irritated me. Wal-mart is/was one of the worst but even they've tightened their return policies. When there is proof of wrong doing, I'm 100% in the customer's favor. Refunds, gift certificates, whatever is deemed reasonable for the level of the mistake. HOWEVER, I do not think that just because somebody whines enough about something, the company should fork over money. I like others before me on this thread am not saying the OP did anything wrong or is dishonest. But the fact remains that the evidence is circumstantial at best. Nobody is 100% sure when or where the damage occurred. Now, that being said, there's no harm in NGC offering something like a free basic submission for next time or something like that for the inconvenience. But for them to just fork over the full value of the medal on a he said/she said doesn't make sense to me. Maybe it's my business background talking.

In any case, I want to be clear that I'm not bashing the OP here and it really is a bummer about the medal no matter when or where the damage occurred.

 

I too mean absolutely no offense to Pen, but my feelings match yours perfectly. When cropping the comparison photos I played around trying to enhance the areas in question on the before photos and couldn't help but to think it somewhat suggestive of the issues being there prior to the submission. However, just like there is insufficient evidence to conclude any sort of wrongdoing on NGC's part of a shipping problem, there also isn't enough to say that the issues are, in fact, present in both photos. I too would vote for acquittal.

There isn't a doubt in my mind that every member of this board experienced in submitting coins hasn't overlooked something at one time or another. It's unfortunate but it happens. If anything, I do think his decision to take detailed images prior to future submissions both a wise choice and reasonable way to handle this.

 

Haven't read every post here so may be repeating someone but...even if you are 100% correct that somewhere at NGC they mishandled your coin for every one of you that isn't trying to take advantage of them I bet there are 100 others that try to do just that. I imagine they get quite a few "my coin didn't have this mark on it when I sent it" calls they have to deal with.

 

DING! DING! DING! Just look around eBay. Sellers trying to scam buyers and buyers trying to scam sellers. And it keeps getting worse month after month at an ever-increasing rate. "This is why we can't have nice things." Everyone is running a scam, it seems, especially on the Internet. Can you blame an NGC for being a little PTSD? Who gets shafted? We all do, and iPen this time in particular. Who won't? Their dealer network.

 

Having worked in retail food for 40 plus years and still deal within the industry yes you are as others are correct when saying there is a lot of scamers.
I could spend the next three days telling stories of dealing with John Q Public.
Returning a ham bone wanting a refund because the ham didn't taste good, well lets see a 12 lb ham and it didn't taste good ...but must of ate real well since you"re returning just the bone!
Or how about the shells from 5 lbs of shrimp that were tuff? And you want your $60 back?
Yes it is very trying at times, just when you think you have seen the most craziest jerk ,wait 5 seconds and one nuttier will appel right in front of your face!
Again I could write books....but it is the cost of doing business.....and guess what there's a crazy factor that is factored in to cover the cost of a loss!
That factor is a relationship that yes some will take advantage of...and others see it as " good will''.
No one wants to deal with a negative experence....and yes it is a royal PIA dealing with cutomers who you know are in it for a scam, or what ever they can get.
Also businesses are insured for loss....another cost that if you win you loose.
But again...it is the cost of doing business....and the benfits out weight the negative feed back .

 

I'm confused - I only have one of this medal. Overall, I've had 9 submissions total in the last 6 months with dozens of coins total. This is the only turtle ship medal that I own and have submitted. In any case, I believe that DCarr proved that it was the same medal - I don't know him personally but he was nice enough to match the details for us from the before/after submission pics.

By the way, I'm not taking any of these responses personally. It's good to see and understand what NGC may be thinking.

 

My bad - I mis-read the original post (obviously). And I'm glad you're not taking it as an attack, it's just looking at it from all sides.

 

s@Paddy54

As I wrote above: I'm an equal opportunity TPGS "basher" or "defender." It is an unfortunate situation. It probably would have been good business for NGC to just settle this by either replacing the piece and selling the OP's or giving him some free submissions if the cost is low and the complainer is a regular customer w/no prior problems. Accidents happen.

Paddy54, posted: "And of course this would be the advice of a person who works for a TPG! ICG I do believe......correct me if I am wrong."

Yes Paddy, I work for ICG at the moment and have worked at every major TPGS except PCGS in the past. I've done EVERYTHING there is to do at a TPGS. To keep this short - EVERYTHING except keeping the books and signing the checks! That includes EVERYTHING. That is why my thoughts on this matter are MUCH MORE INFORMED than those of a retired meat packer!

It's my opinion, as already stated, that any TPGS damage to the coin happened during the assembly process. A check of the person who entered the final grade would reveal when in the process any damage occurred either in the grading room or during QC.

As far as this opinion of yours: "Again the squeaky wheel gets the oil, and corporate America loves to roll over the little guy.... and that guy is the one who rolls over to their code of conduct. Don't stop your quest to receive compensation for your loss."

I was the "consumer advocate" at every TPGS I've been at except NGC. I've always gone way above and way beyond to help with anything. Unfortunately, some "squeaky wheels" were "defective" when made. For that reason, I've had the extreme pleasure of "removing" many of them in the past with no adverse effects on the "bottom line."

I've given my opinion about the situation. Thankfully, it's not my coin.

 

@Insider
For a self appointed know it all,I have to correct you as what you think you know ,and what you really do know ...are of course two differen things! As usual!!
First of all I am not a retired meat packer, yes true I have over the years stood at the block as a meat cutter, I have also obtained a BPA,, a second degree ,B.S. in Food Science,as well a minor in micro biology. I have used my knowlege in the food industry working for several major companies over the last 52 + years.
Over those year worked with the public first hand ,handling customer complaints,and resolving them in a positive mannor.
I have also collected coins as long or longer then you. And what really puzzles me is such a so call " expert " as you claim to be... never has posted a coin that "He" owned, on this site. Only coins that he has copied the image from other sources.
You may have somewhat a following here, but quite a few members here take little or no merit in any of your long winded postings. Trying your best to convince an audience who doesn't really give a rats butt about any of your messages!

 

Rat's Butts! I knew you were a butcher by the tone of your posts!!

PS I'm grateful to learn you and quite a few members take the time to read my long-winded posts. It indicates to me that the little time I spend on CT anymore is worth the time. Now I shall correct you. Here is the SECOND coin of mine that I've posted on CT:

 

Pac Man!!!!