Are PCGS/ NGC graded "70" coins actually perfect?

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Arvin, Apr 7, 2018.

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  1. tommyc03

    tommyc03 Senior Member

    Nothing wrong really. I guess I am just old school type that does not waste (my) money on something I could never get a return on at some point. I just hate to see anyone else not watching these "trends" and thinking they can flip sooner rather than later and get the big disappointment slapped across their face without having been warned in some way. But by all means, everyone should collect what they like. That is, if they think paying $30.00 to have an $18.00 silver round slabbed is going to benefit them in some way. I think of my groceries the same way. Why pay $13.00 for a can of Maxwell House coffee when the store brand is made by Maxwell House and costs only $6.00. Throwing good money after bad is just not in my blood. All said respectfully of course.
     
    tommyc03, Apr 10, 2018
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  3. COCollector

    COCollector Well-Known Member

    Maybe. But I think you've overlooked pre-screening by high-volume dealers and by experienced Collectors.

    That is, I expect fewer "flawed" modern coins get submitted for grading. This skews the populations to the high end.

    Also, maybe the U.S. Mint's quality has improved to the point that most modern coins will grade 69 or 70.
     
    COCollector, Apr 10, 2018
    #42 + Quote Reply
    JPeace$ likes this.
  4. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    People aren't getting them to flip them. ASEs are the modern morgans. Some people think they're just bullion but there is a very large and very real collector market that likes things like this and knows exactly what they're doing buying them. If the market didn't want/like them it would have stopped long ago.
     
    baseball21, Apr 10, 2018
    #43 + Quote Reply
    tommyc03 likes this.
  5. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Are you a mets fan and indians fan. My two best teams. Lol I'm from boston
     
    Cheech9712, Apr 10, 2018
    #44 + Quote Reply
  6. COCollector

    COCollector Well-Known Member

    I'll never again buy a 70-grade modern silver coin.

    3 years ago I bought a PF70 reverse-proof 2015 Canadian Maple. It was beautiful. Sadly, it developed minor spotting and significant hazing around the rim.

    Today I'd be lucky if it grades PF69. For sure I wouldn't buy it.

    TPGs recognize this deterioration problem. And they don't guarantee that a graded coin will retain its grade.

    For example: "The PCGS Guarantee does not apply to coins exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to PCGS grading and encapsulation. This deterioration may include, but is not limited to, spotting, hazing, PVC contamination, changes in color, and corrosion."

    Interestingly, I've had great success preserving a roll of Maples in Air-Tites. After 3 years, only a few developed minor spotting. Most are still as pristine as new -- and much nicer than my PF70.
    [​IMG]
     
    COCollector, Apr 10, 2018
    #45 + Quote Reply
  7. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Show me a ms 70 cents that you submitted. Guessing gold stuff is kinda easy. Come on. Whens the last time you you got gold change. Dont think your grading skill are better then most. Even i can feel comfortable sending in a coin to be graded when i receive them a week ago and in mint casing.
     
    Cheech9712, Apr 10, 2018
    #46 + Quote Reply
  8. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    I hear ya. Where are the ms 70 morgans. Id like to see one before my time runs out
     
    Cheech9712, Apr 10, 2018
    #47 + Quote Reply
  9. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    Sorry, I’ve been looking for one for years and, so far, have come up dry.:wacky:
     
    Santinidollar, Apr 10, 2018
    #48 + Quote Reply
  10. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    They will never listen to us. Babies and God ms 70
     
    Cheech9712, Apr 10, 2018
    #49 + Quote Reply
  11. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Yeah don't make bigger liers out of them. Sorry just saying
     
    Cheech9712, Apr 10, 2018
    #50 + Quote Reply
    tommyc03 likes this.
  12. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Yeah keep cracking the the slabs. Sonner or later you'll get the extra thousand dollar reward. I need to stop. I don't have the creds to continue
     
    Cheech9712, Apr 10, 2018
    #51 + Quote Reply
  13. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    ETC. ETC
     
    Cheech9712, Apr 10, 2018
    #52 + Quote Reply
  14. Cheech9712

    Cheech9712 Every thing is a guess

    Yeah so grade your coins in december 2017. Instead of january 2017. Get back to me. I'm done honest
     
    Cheech9712, Apr 10, 2018
    #53 + Quote Reply
  15. Chiefbullsit

    Chiefbullsit CRAZY HORSE

    That's good, we're all so proud of you.
    555.jpg
     
    Chiefbullsit, Apr 11, 2018
    #54 + Quote Reply
  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Ahhhh - same old same old - the same lame excuses used over and over again to try and explain away what has really happened.

    Hopefully you, with you being anyone who buys into those excuses, remember your history. For example, you do remember don't you that until 2001 NGC had not graded 1 single coin dated 1965 or later - not 1 ! So until that date they had never graded a 70. And until 2004 PCGS simply refused to grade coins as 70s, except in extremely rare cases. That was company policy. And then, all of a sudden they changed company policy and said, OK, we'll give 'em 70s now. And boy did they !

    And do you also remember that printed records of all of this exist ? There were numerous articles in the numismatic press about it. There are printed copies of population reports that were published on a regular basis. So it's quite easy to see exactly when the change in grading standards occurred - and it was in 2004. At then of 2003 the number of coins graded 70 were so low as to be almost nonexistent. But by the beginning of 2005, those published pop reports showed those ultra high percentages of 80% or more of given coins being submitted were being graded as 70s.

    So do you think the mint managed to change everything in 2004 ? That in all the years prior to that they could never mint a 70 coin, and then suddenly in 2004 they could. Suddenly in 2004 70s became as common as dirt ! Do you think all submitters were suddenly granted the ability to be able to tell a 69 from a 70, literally overnight, and thus only submit 70s for grading ?

    No, of course that didn't happen, none of it did. You don't go from 1 year, and the previous 18 years combined, where less than 1% of business strikes and less than 3% of Proofs had been graded as 70, to the next year with over 80% of them being graded as 70. The one and only way things like that can happen is when the TPGs change company policy and grossly loosen grading standards.

    Even a company like ANACS, which was the first TPG and had been around since long before any of the others, they had never graded any coin as 70 - not 1. Do you guys remember that too ? And then suddenly - POOF ! - there's so many 70s around, in everybody's slabs, that you just can't hardly believe it.

    No, there only one explanation for all of it. The TPGs took their grading standards and threw them out the window. And left us with what we have today - in effect, no standards at all. At least that have any meaning.
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 11, 2018
    #55 + Quote Reply
  17. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    If you don't understand submission dynamics that's on you.

    If you want to try and argue that it's 100 percent grading changes again that really isn't worth listening too.

    I don't get why you try and take such hard lines like this. There's always numerous factors not just your anti grading one
     
    baseball21, Apr 12, 2018
    #56 + Quote Reply
  18. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I see :rolleyes:

    OK, let's do it this way.

    These are the grand totals of PCGS population numbers - covering all coins, all denominations, all dates. Between the end of 2003 and the end of 2005 those numbers had changed, you might say they had swelled some.

    End of 2003 MS70 - 215 (17 years worth of grading)
    End of 2005 MS70 - 14,958 (2 years worth of grading)


    End of 2003 PF70 - 4,711 (17 years worth of grading)
    End of 2005 PF70 - 23,188 (2 years worth of grading)

    Those are hard numbers, documented facts. And you want to tell me that's not worth listening to ? That changes like that, over that time frame, are due to submission dynamics ? :rolleyes:

    Do you really think anybody would believe that nonsense after looking at those numbers ? There's only 1 thing that can account for changes like that - loosening the grading standards to the point of idiocy.
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 13, 2018
    #57 + Quote Reply
  19. iPen

    iPen Well-Known Member

    Technically, nothing is "perfect".

    But by numismatic standards, TPGs try their best at getting it right, lest human error.
     
    iPen, Apr 13, 2018
    #58 + Quote Reply
    baseball21 likes this.
  20. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    Those are fairly stunning figures, Doug. Any ideas from your end on WHY the standards were loosened?

    @GDJMSP
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2018
    Santinidollar, Apr 13, 2018
    #59 + Quote Reply
  21. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    You really just proved my point. You zero in on one thing and then refuse to accept that anything else could possibly be a factor.

    You can throw away the first 10 years of grading since basically no one was sending those coins in back then.

    There’s several things that accounted for that change one of which was them being more open to the grade but it wasn’t the only reason and a lot more things were changing as well such as those coins were actually getting sent in in large numbers.
     
    baseball21, Apr 13, 2018
    #60 + Quote Reply
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