Photograph When Cracking Slabs?

Ok, so in practice let's say that in order to build a collection you buy 70% certified coins and 30% raw stock. And that you prefer raw coins for the obvious reasons of any old-fashioned style enthusiast. You endeavor to buy very carefully with little intention to sell, but because long term value is important you accept that slabbing is necessary to ensure getting things off to a good start.
Cracking slabs so that a coin might be experienced in its natural state is known to decrease its resale value in modern practice. But does this always have to be so? Examples that have unique marks, wear or toning could be cracked out along with photo documentation of each step, and this information appended to the series album, perhaps even on a CD, or a file stored in the cloud.
The idea might work better with pre -1900 series, as the lower mintages in general assure mostly unique examples from coin to coin.
Maybe some of you veteran CT members will recall this being discussed on a much earlier thread, in which case I would like to read what was said.

 

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If you purchased a slabbed coin for raw coin value, then the value would never change and if you are careful when removing it (which I trust your are) then it makes no diiference as long as a premuim is not added to the value when slabbed.

 

Well, yes, and of course you mean the intrinsic value will be constant, because the market value certainly will change.
I meant to add, but the post was getting too long, that the idea is for eventual resale, say in 30 years, so the original certification should be preserved to assist future assessment.

 

True and I would point out the slab itself would bring value regarding older more valueable slabs. Some 20$ coins will go for 80$ just becuase the slab is more antique.

 

If you do plan to photgraph and record your cracking, I hope that you keep the slab. It still would help in the future assesments

 

It is usually very difficult to directly link a coin out of slab with it now being unslabbed as 99% of the owners are not that good of photographers. You can better see any problems on the coin with a magnifier than prove it was the same coin once it is out. Jim

 

Even if you could link the coin to the slab, no one's going to pay slab value for it, no grade guarantee. The new owner will have to pay to have it re-slabbed, and there's no assurance that it will get back into the slab at the same grade it had previously. Since he's taking a risk is going to reduce his offer accordingly.

 

There’s also the Photoshop factor. Some people would worry, reasonably enough, that the photos could be doctored.

I do keep the label when I crack a coin. Who knows, I might trade it some day to somebody who knows me, and they’d believe me that the label goes with the coin. But I’d expect them to see it only as an interesting footnote, not as increased value.

 

Right. A Pandora's box would ensue by encouraging cracking out with lousy photos.

BUT, if the un-slabbing were formed into a reputable business with state of the art photography and pristine ethics and practices, one could imagine it working. Something like RCNS - Rare Coin Naturalization Service.

Yes, an important consideration. Moderns and mint state coins would best remain entombed.
But the bulk of genuine 18th &19th C. coins are unique. And even if someone attempted to cheat for profit, the discrepancy would be detectable.
I can see two trouble spots: values jump considerably from VF35 to EF40 and from EF45 to AU50, so the lower grade coin could be slipped into the album with a doctored photo.
Sounds like a problem for....(drumroll) Blockchain Technology!

 

Also keep in mind, when the coin is not in a slab then anything can happen to it which will degrade it's original slab rating. Finger prints, skin oil, something spilled on it, dropping the coin, dropping something else on the coin, finger abrasions (something on the finger), even any impact of the coin on the ground/table during cracking it out, etc etc etc.

Plus what guarantee is there that the coin you are "showing" is the coin you removed from a slab, and then stored for a certain period of time ? You'll have to document each imperfection and strike characteristics. As a buyer if I see other imperfections that were not documented, then to me it's a different coin; including color. Plus who guarantees that you don't change/swap out the photos later on?

I wouldn't expect to get the same grade after cracking a coin out of a slab unless you immediately resubmit it.

I buy 95% unslabbed coins. If I'm after something of much higher value and want to confirm with 100% it's authenticity then I'll buy slabbed, especially if one can't find one not slabbed.

fyi "you accept that slabbing is necessary to ensure getting things off to a good start." .... I don't accept that statement. I didn't when I started. But everyone collects different things for different reasons.

 

Once you crack a slab, the grade it had means nothing. Any buyer wants to know what the coin grades now, not what it used to be graded at.

 

I’m not a rookie buyer by a long shot. I am also not a “premium quality” buyer. Not usually anyway. If I am thumbing through my Redbook and the romance of a particular piece strikes me I go on a mission to find the piece that has my focus. Rather like the guy on a car lot drawn to the red convertible..... If I set a price point in my mind of less than $500.00 a slab is of no importance. Anything more than $500.00 to me merits the authenticity of a slab...... Now as that pertains to the OP’s scenario, my purchasing decision would be negatively affected by the lack of a slab for a pricey piece even if accompanied with photos, documentation or anything else..... Anyways that’s just this romantic buyers perspective.

 

That's where pristine ethics and practices come in.

That's where the state-of-the-art photography comes in.

Yes, after years of toning begin to be apparent on a nice example, re-documenting with the same process would be recommended.

That's where Blockchain comes in. I have read recently about this technology being adopted for copyrighting and intellectual property rights. I see no reason why the same could not be used with a date and time stamped, encoded coin image.

I would love to buy only unslabbed coins. But with the series I collect - draped & capped bust and early type, authentication is vital. Plus, these are the very historic pieces for which the slab really gets in the way. When was plastic invented? It's a disconnect.

Increasingly certification is, if not always necessary, very helpful, and for the $1K+ range, essential. I.e., not only to avoid counterfeits but to allow efficient consideration by a wider audience.

Look, there are many collectors like yourself who want the pure experience of relating to our past via coins without the artificial barrier. But the available supply of unslabbed, genuine, quality original pieces has tightened to the breaking point.
And please consider the aspect of bringing in more YNs. Their experience more inspiring when they are allowed to handle a rare coin in raw form.

Admittedly I am proposing a complicated solution, and one with additional cost considerations. Ideally the TPGs might consider this option for circulated older coins, sparing everybody a lot of effort.

 

Yes, I understand. But I would argue that certification plays an important part for those like myself who purchase mainly in the $200-$500 range. If your entire collection is mid-range (ok low mid-range to some) it does take away a significant error potential in valuations.
And I am not talking about traditional documentation, but an accepted, standardized methodology.

I do love all of this headwind. Any good new idea has to face it.

 

Sounds like you are selling your business model ...

IMHO, if I want a slabbed coin I'll buy a slabbed coin. If I want an unslabbed one, I'll buy an unslabbed one.

 

Only a concept at this point. Good luck!

 

Wouldn’t matter. Once it’s out it’s out and the slab was completely irrelevant as there’s no assurance that nothing has changed or happened to it since.

 

Do keep in mind that the photo documentation would be a series of time-stamped images recording each step. With a regimented procedure nothing is going to happen to a coin in the few minutes it would take to transfer to a friendlier holder. After that, if it gets mishandled leaving visible marks then it would not match the file photo, so would raise the necessary red flag and need to be re-evaluated.
I feel confident that 99% of the time reasonable people could make use of this system without incident. There are always scallywags and screwballs who would not understand and try to take advantage, as with any system. But that should not derail what would be a great boost in satisfaction for the hobby.

 

It wouldn’t be a great boost for most people, if it was most coins would be raw.

It doesn’t matter how much you photo it or record it, once the coins out of the slab the slab is completely irrelevant.

 

It's not nearly so black and white as that. Many collectors who prefer raw coins have submitted to slabbing as a modern necessity, which in many if not most cases it has become. But a majority would prefer not to have them so inaccessible if that were to become an option.

In standard practice, true. I am talking about a completely revolutionary method that can be shown to be trustworthy.

Ok, I get that nobody here likes the idea, at least so far. But as you stockpile your rotten tomatoes, please try to keep in the back of your mind that this concept addresses a source of discontent in numismatics, so possibly worth keeping an open mind about.
I will put together a more detailed explanation, and investigate the Blockchain aspect, and get back to you all.
Meanwhile anybody is free to offer a positive comment or two.