Found this eBay Seller with some really nice and even rare coins!

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There is a lot of talk about this Seller both here and on www.forums.collectors.com but only a brief mention that someone had actually asked him or her a question if there was concern about a coin! That brief mention of asking the Seller a question was actually from a highly satisfied buyer. If this Seller is honest, I am sure that he or she would provide a scan of the Writ (Order to Sell) concerning the liquidation of his or her Grandfathers coins. More than likely, he or she would answer any question put to them but no one ever asks!

Thanks to all that have seen or will see this Thread as an educational and enlightening experience in respect to being able to see some really nice and rare coins!

This will be my last post concerning this Seller and issue and hope that the Moderator or Administrator will "Close This Thread"!


Frank

 

Chris,

Fair points you make -- all of them. Thank you for taking the time to share them, and thank you for not taking my criticisms personally.

However, if this seller used only one or two of the questionable tactics, I would be more lkely to believe the auction at face value -- but if all these warning signs are taken together I think the likelihood that he is not purposefully trying to mislead to be somewhere between slim and none.

Personally, I consider all of the following to be warning signs:

1) "as-is, no return policy";
2) only checks or money orders accepted -- no PayPal;
3) pictures taken at an angle which tends to hide problems
4) "estate" sale mentioned multiple times
5) coins "graded long ago" yet many appear to be seem to be freshly dipped
6) multi color auctions with large fonts
7) majority of bidders are low-feedback
8) high-dollar coins offered uncertified
9) feedback specifically mentioning both misleading pictures and TPG-cofirmed altered services
10) Seller has coin sales dating back to 2002, yet all of a sudden they get an "estate sale"
11) virtually all the coins have a smilar look -- overdipped
12) the "estate settlement doesn't allow for returns" (have you ever heard of such a thing, as if the grandfather requested in his will that no returns are allowed.)
13) overgrading -- labeling obviously circulated pieces as UNC and FDC
14) labeling common as dirt coins (circulated 1945 WLH, for example) as "Rare condition".

Again, if only one or two of these warning signs were present, I might believe that it was only a coincidence, but if taken together, I have a difficult time.

Respectfully submitted...Mike

 

Frank,

I have asked the seller the exact question you raise (concering the Writ/Order to Sell), and I will post any response I receive.

That said, the reason why none of the folks on the PCGS forums actually asked a question is likely because they, like me, can spot a scam a mile away and/or shy away from "estate sales with as-is no return policies, no PayPal, and with questionable photo techniques". Some posters to pay close attention to on those threads are Russ and TomB, both of which have more eBay/numismatic experience than virtually everyone on these forums.

Again, I apologize if you are taking my comments as an insult to you or your taste, but I see no reason whatsoever to lock this thread.

Respectfully submitted...Mike

 

Mike,

No offense taken, but I just thought of something. I have a pretty decent collection of high grade coins and have told my wife if something ever happens to me to not sell the coins as a collection to a dealer, but to take individual photos and sell them individually on Ebay. As she doesn't know the difference in gold eagle or golden dollar much less value then I am certain her auction format would look similar to the seller in particular on Ebay along with hitting a few of you key points.

Such as.....

1) "as-is, no return policy";......It wouldn't occur to her that coins are offered with return policies as she thinks a coin is a coin and returns are for broken items.
2) only checks or money orders accepted -- no PayPal;....Probably would take it, but has never sold on Ebay.
3) pictures taken at an angle which tends to hide problems....She would do her best or have someone take close up pictures with or without angles just to get the details in focus.
4) "estate" sale mentioned multiple times...May say this is my dead husbands coin collection and I am not a expert (which is true).
5) coins "graded long ago" yet many appear to be seem to be freshly dipped.....Unfortunately I dont list any grades on my coins
6) multi color auctions with large fonts.....She is a computer programmer and the auction may have large color fonts as she believes all collectors are old and cant see. As the computer programmer she is the auction would probably have roll over effects, links to a memorial on MySpace and music. There is no telling how elaborate the auction would be.
7) majority of bidders are low-feedback....There may be bidders with low feedback participate.
8) high-dollar coins offered uncertified.....I dont like slabs and think they are ugly while taking up to much room. All, and I do mean all my coins are placed into airtites even the ones that come in slabs. I have $1000 proof seated liberty halves uncertified along with many other MS coins. My wife would sell them as they are in the airtites.
9) feedback specifically mentioning both misleading pictures and TPG-cofirmed altered services....This could happen as my wife would just list what she finds and as some of my coins have light hairline scratches not captured in the image, a buyer would leave similar feedback as they wouldn't be certified by PCGS or NGC. A good example is that I have bought coins such as a 1892 Isabelle quater with full strike and a light rub that has light hairline scratches covered by natural toning for $175-$200 then I would to buy one identical that doesn't have hairline scratches for $500. Thats just my preference as the light scratches are worth the $300 difference.
10) Seller has coin sales dating back to 2002, yet all of a sudden they get an "estate sale"....My wife has been on Ebay 5 years and has a rating of 20 along with never selling a item and hasn't bought in over a year.
11) virtually all the coins have a smilar look -- overdipped.......My coins are not over dipped, although a few have been dipped such as common date walkers and proof Kennedys. If pictures are taken indoors then the images would all have a yellow tint from incandescent bulbs not metering correctly with the cameras white balance thus they all have the same look aside from the rainbow toned coins. I hope she wouldn't dip all of them although she does know rainbow toned coins carry a premium.
12) the "estate settlement doesn't allow for returns" (have you ever heard of such a thing, as if the grandfather requested in his will that no returns are allowed.)....Thats a good point as my will doesn't say sell "as is", but again, she hasn't bought much on Ebay and the concept of a return policy is unknown to her.
13) overgrading -- labeling obviously circulated pieces as UNC and FDC......I dont know what this seller means by FDC, but as the vast majority of my coins are UNC she could see similar coins for sell and think UNC was a collectors format although I believe this seller is just repeating what he sees written on the paper holder. Likely she would look at the coin and list it 1916 quarter not knowing the difference in a Standing Liberty or Barber quarter, much less that they are carry D,S or blank mintmarks for P.
14) labeling common as dirt coins (circulated 1945 WLH, for example) as "Rare condition"......For her all my coins are rare and if I had bag of worn wheat pennies from the 1950's they would be rare too as this is concept applied to something not common. Although wheat pennies are common to us, she has never seen one in change, much less been to a coin show or shop where there are trays full for 5 cents.

Just wanted to show the mindset of someone trying to sell something that they dont know anything about.

 

Sorry not a pro yet, but too, too, too many high quality (raw coins that are pure white) in one place. I've been to some big dealers and they don't even have this kind of inventory. Grand dad must have started saving coins when he was a young pup and had perfect storage place for coins. Maybe seller is honest but I am having a hard time want to buy from someone who won't take paypal and wants a check from me and has no return policy.

 

Chris,

I see a lot of "if", "probably", "may have", and "could" in your response.

I'm not saying you couldn't explain away a few of these warning signs, but I am saying that taken together they mean (to me) that the seller is in all likelihood intentionally trying to decieve.

I've just seen too many of them to dismiss these "warning signs" as coincidence.

Respectfully...Mike

 

Mike,

I used "if", "probably", "may have", and "could" in my response because I am certain my wife would not try to deceive people while not knowing what she was doing and uncertain as to a proper format. There is no telling what her auction would look like thus the use of unknown, but likely terminology.

Although the prices of the mentioned seller are unrealistic now I would fell much better buying from this guy at lower prices who is just trying to get the auctions listed and sold than I would with someone that I consider to be dishonest such as stating "This coin is worth $1500 in MS65" when it is a $100 AU58 coin or even worst sellers like simplycoins or tuesdaynightcoins, klondike95, ernie, and greatsoutherncoins who notoriously over grade the coins or worst reslab coins in NNC holders or SGS holders. By the way I have the above names blocked from my Ebay searches and what they do I consider to be the worst deception and what is sad is that they are getting the higher prices for the off the wall slabs despite the true grade despite Ebays attempt at blocking the numerical grades from non-approved graders. Its sickening.

Not only is Ebay a "Wild West, but I have seen just as bad people at coin shows. I picked up a modern silver eagle with Artificially Toned toning at a coin show. $13 melt value. The dealer offered it for $30 and told me "son if this coin was graded it would be a $50 coin" I told him no one would grade it and handed it back to him. Most of these guys I come across (and I sure these guys just stand out) are just like used car salesmen. Once I came across someone in Dallas that had nice and really nice MS coins ungraded...all ungraded. How many dealers do you know that dont have any graded coins? Well this guy had the the heritage prices and was quoting everything as MS65 when it was MS62......DECEPTION

Like I said originally, people should always use caution when buying on Ebay graded or ungraded, but you know someone out there would look at my auction and say this guy is trying to scam me by offering a $200 coin with a opening bid at 99cents and if I opened the bid at $200 someone would say this guy is trying to scam me by offering a $175 coin for $200. And in all honestly the only reason is I would open the bid at 99 cents would be to avoid Ebays higher insertion fees along with attracting more people while the bids are low so that before the end of the auction I would have a frenzy of bids that would get me close to the $200 mark or higher as people have set their minds on buying my item where as if I opened the bid at $200 I might get a bid, but not likely as eveyone wants a good deal. I dont consider this auction style as deception. Only marketing. I list the item, provide clear images and hope for the best and risk not getting what I should.

Hopefully for the people following this thread don't write off auctions with low opening bids while everyone else writes off the quality items started with realistic bids and god help the people bidding on Ebwcoin and Ernie with their opening and buy it now bids.

I hope between the two of us new people are learning to be critical, but not over critical. I know when I got into collecting more seriously I bought a few items that were good deals, but only because of slight problems that I over looked. But I offered what I thought was fair based on past auction prices and I always took the images and zoomed in using photoshop to get a better feel for the coin. There have been times I over paid, but I got what I had been looking for and overall was happy and other times I got a great deal. Grading and pricing is subjective and collecting is purely acquiring items of interest at prices that are comfortable to the buyer. A shinny quarter to someone is a rare MS69 coin just as it can be doctored or a counterfit coin wheras people will pay $100 for it and others use it towards a soda.

 

GDJMSP:

Are you referring to that particular coin in the auction or the 1916 D quarter? The MM does look a little funny to me. May be the pics, but it looks way off center compared to the rest of the coin.

 

GDJMSP,

I think these are good points as to the prices that the coins have reached and like I said earlier, Although the prices of the mentioned seller are unrealistic now, I watched the 1895 Barber. This is a coin that despite the problem I would have very quickly given $350 for because I know it has a problem and $2200 is a lot for me. For $350 I would have a nice example worth overlooking the flaws and to someone else it would be worth $450, and another $550. Now that it is $2200 and overpriced people may quickly dismiss this seller for allowing a coin to go so high when the coin likely couldn't be resold for a close price. Its just the nature of auctions. I imagine this guy is sitting back not knowing if the coin is worth $20 or $2000 and people are ripping themselves off because they dont know what they are doing. If the coin was $400 no one would be talking about. Its a case of the dumb leading the dumb and to the seller compared to other coins he is selling this stands out as "Pristine-Superlative."

As far as dumb I have been there. 7 years ago when I got on Ebay I sold childhood toys and hoped for $20 where as I got $100-$150....all because I had the boxes. Not knowing the original box was what the buyers wanted I almost slapped a address on the boxes along with postage and sent it as it was since I just happened to have the boxes that they fit in and the only reason for including it the auction was for people to know what the items were as I didn't. Luckly someone asked me ship a box in bubble wrap. I was only selling the toys as I knew how to.

The reason I mentioned this was because this seller, like myself with the boxes, (likely) doesn't know what he has and just want to sell it.

Chris

 

Thanks for posting huntsman!

The one thing that bothers me most with these listings is the fact that the seller says they are inherited.This seller knows what he is talking about. Check out his lingo. The fact that he has not sent these in , is a major red flag.

Very nice collection indeed. But most are problem coins. I bet some of those proofs pictured have hairlines. Check out the angle of the pics. This guy is a pro seller , selling nice problem coins. As stated before by other members, BUY AT YOUR OWN RISK.

I bet maybe a few of these are not problem coins. I dont see anything that cries FAKE.

Thanks again Huntsman for this post. At the very least we can see some rare coins that most people will never see. And the fact that many of these are problems to begin with, which can be misleading, with this sellers shady car sellsman tactics.

 

Chris,

Thank you for the explanation. However, I understood your rationale the first time. But apparently I wasn't clear enough when I tried to explain how it kind of made my case....

The reason why I pointed it out is because for a seller to coincidentally do all these things -- things that are commonly used on eBay to decieve yet are not common at all on "normal" auctions -- is extremely unlikely and your using of the terms "if", "probably", "may have" and "could" point to this fact. To use the multiplicative feature of probability (joint probability)...if the likelihood, for example, of your wife using angled photographs was 5%, and the likelihood that she would ont use PayPal at 5%, the resulting probability of using both terms would be 0.25%.

In other words, while it is possible all these questionable techniques could be coincidental and done with a pure heart, there are just to many "ifs", "probablys", "may haves" and "coulds" for this explanation to be believeable.

There are all types of scammers on eBay...

Some play the overhype/overgrade game, like the sellers you mention. Convince the ignorant the coins are worth more than they are. (Although it is worth mentioning -- all accept returns. All accept PayPal. All have fairly good photos.)

Others play the "unsearched hoard" or "sealed mint set" game. Playing to the "treasure-hunter" in all of us.

Yet others play the "inheritance" or "my grandfather's" collection game. Which works for the same reason as the "unsearched hoard" game above.

Some use the "photoshop" or "angled coin" game. Making the coin appear nicer than it is.

Still others use the "no returns" on knowingly problematic coins hoping to snag the ignorant.

The really nefarious and crafty play more than one of these games at the same time.

However, all rely on deception/ignorance -- quite often with a little "gold fever" mixed in for good measure.

Agree 100%. Deception as a sales technique is as old as sales itself, and it has never been right.

Agreed 100%. And I would also hope by careful reading of this thread many could learn the pitfalls of purchasing through eBay and some of the deceptive sales techniques the scammers use.

To sum up my position, let me ask you a (very pointed) question....

As an experienced eBayer and numismatist, would you bid on this seller's coins at these levels with these terms?

Respectfully...Mike

 

Are you saying that it is a fake?

 

The seller responded to my question:

Hello. I am interested in placing a bid on your auctions, but I am having trouble believeing that the settlement of your Grandfather's estate doesn't allow for returns. Would you please send me a copy of the Writ (order to Sell) concerning your Grandfather's collection? THank you very much....Mike

Here is his response:

The coins are being sold to pay for medical bills and debts, the funds are being used to pay those debts immediately. I have to sell all the coins, they are for absolute auction, check my feedback, I have recently sold coins up to 10000+ value with positive feedback. I do not have the timeframe or money to handle returns, that is why the policy is the way it is. The coins are something I wish I did not have to sell.

So either he's lying in his auction, or he was lying in his response. To refresh your memory, here's what he says in the auction (underlining mine):

Payment by Money Order, Cashier's/Certified Check, sorry NO PAYPAL or credit cards, items sold as is and all sales final as estate settlement does not allow for returns.

So I ask this again -- why should we believe anything this seller has to say? If he lied in the description/answer, what's to say he's not lying about his motives or the source of the coins...Mike

 

p.s. I replied back to him:

If that is the case, and you need the money to pay medical bills, why did you say, very specifically, in the auction "all sales final as estate settlement does not allow for returns"?

It seems to me that either your auctions are innacurate or your response to me was.

Do you care to elaborate? I am concerned that all is not what it appears here, and would like some confirmation before placing any bids.

Thank you...Mike


I will post any response I receive...Mike

 

Here is his response:

Check my feedback if you are concerned about bidding, I am sorry if I did not use the correct terms to describe why I will not take returns. I cannot afford to take returns, the material has to be sold, as is. I hope this is helpful. The coins have been well received by those who have purchased them. Thanks for your interest, if you choose not to bid that is your perogative.

Sounds to me like the response of someone caught with his hands in the cookie jar, but I'll let you all reach your own conclusions...Mike

 

When someone passes on, their debts become part of the estate along with the asset's. Asset's are required to be applied to the debts before they can be distributed to the heirs. The Executor of the estate is responsible for selling non-cash assets if need be.

The seller may just be the executor of the estate and not want to deal with returns. While I would think such a policy would hurt his auctions, but apparently he seems to be doing just fine.

Please note I am not endorsing or recommending this seller in anyway.