Cleaning your coins.

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by National dealer, May 31, 2004.

Page 8 of 14
  1. gc1111

    gc1111 New Member

    My problem with this is that the same coin can be considered gradeable by one grader and "damaged and not gradeable" by another. In many cases, you have to examine the coin under a microscope to determine if it is "damaged and not gradeable". If the damage is so minor that graders disagree or that you need a microscope to detect it, why is it not gradeable?

    Yes, it is less valuable because of the "damage", but certainly it is gradeable. I think the grading companies have really taken this to extremes that don't make sense for collectors.
     
    gc1111, Nov 30, 2007
    #141 + Quote Reply
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  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    This is not correct. Microscopes are never used to grade coins - ever. Rarely is magnification of any kind even used. Professional graders do about 95% of their grading with the naked eye. Magnification of 5x is only used on ultra-high grade coins.

    The only time that a microscope would ever be used by a professional grader is to detect alteration or authenticity on a suspect coin. And even then only very rarely.

    The grading companies had nothing to do with this practice. The idea of a damaged coin not being gradeable was in place long before the grading companies ever even existed. They merely followed the long standing and accepted practice in numismatics.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 1, 2007
    #142 + Quote Reply
  4. dizzyone

    dizzyone New Member

    Jeweler's Ultrasound?

    What about using a jewelery ultra sound cleaning machine to remove debris from a coin? I have a few that do have dirt in them. It certainly would make viewing the coin a lot easier with the crud removed rather than just "guess" what's under the dirt. Jeweler's use ultra sound to clean the most precious gems.. why not a coin? I'm sure cleaning it this way wouldn't do any physical damage vs rubbing with a cloth. Ideas? Comments?
     
    dizzyone, Dec 1, 2007
    #143 + Quote Reply
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It has been shown that ultrasonic cleaners can damage coins, sometimes severely.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 1, 2007
    #144 + Quote Reply
  6. gc1111

    gc1111 New Member

    Then to put my complaint in your terms, the grading companies have changed the definition of damage.

    In common sense terms, look at any low grade coin. Take one out of your pocket. Those coins, which would be happily graded by a grading company, are far more severely damaged than a coin dipped 20 years ago. This makes no sense.
     
    gc1111, Dec 1, 2007
    #145 + Quote Reply
  7. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    Not so, you are confusing terminolgy. The grading companies have slabbed literally millions of dipped coins. The grading companies will even slab cleaned coins. But they will not slab harshly cleaned coins. That is the difference - cleaned & harshly cleaned.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 1, 2007
    #146 + Quote Reply
  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator


    You are correct, we do disagree. But I think for different reasons. You see, you are only thinking of your coins in your own terms and time frame. Many collectors do not even think of this, but consider it. None of us actually owns the coins we collect, we are merely the temporary keepers or custodians of the coins. The time we have them in our possession is but a blink in the lifetime of the coin. Allow me to give you a couple of examples.

    This coin, in its day, would have been considered much as you consider a dirty Lincoln cent - a coin perhaps worth 10 times its face value.

    [​IMG]

    Now, that coin is quite dirty. Do you think it would look better if it were cleaned ? Using your reasoning it would. But if that coin had been cleaned over the years by its various owners, and it was minted in 1649, it certainly would not qualify as this -

    [​IMG]

    Now, you will probably say something like - but that coin is MS, I can understand wanting to save it. But then what about this coin, it is not MS, struck in 1648.

    [​IMG]


    Would it have been OK to clean that one ? Both of these coins were quite common when they circulated. There was nothing rare or unusual about them. The were looked upon by the people who used them just like you look at those dirty Lincoln cents. But think about what shape they would be in today, or over the past 350 years, if their previous owners had said, I'd better clean that coin. It would look better in my collection if I did.

    Should that have happened the coins would undoubtably have been damaged to such a degree that I would not have been able to marvel at what good shape they were in when I owned them. Nor would any later owners.

    So do you see my point ?
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 1, 2007
    #147 + Quote Reply
  9. randall zink

    randall zink New Member

    Nice coin and yes that coin represents what coin collecting is all about art, history and the stories it holds. I understand and respect your comments and will try to take a look at each coin and use good judgement whether to clean or not.
     
    randall zink, Dec 1, 2007
    #148 + Quote Reply
  10. gc1111

    gc1111 New Member

    I guess I have not been expressing myself very clearly. The comment about grading cleaned coins was meant to be a sarcastic overstatement, not a specific complaint about current practice. And I was deliberately mixing terminology. This was an attempt to point out how current practice has diverged from the original justification. If a coin has been damaged in a way that prevents grading standards from being applied, then there is an obvious and legitimate reason to "no grade" it. However that is not current practice.

    A 10x loupe is essentially a microscope. And these are in common use. The normally used lenses in my microscope are 5x. But then again I no longer have the eyes of a 25 yr old!

    A major problem is that there are no standards established (or even universal agreement) for "harshly cleaned". There needs to be an open discussion of this and standards published like the ANA standards or Photograde (although I can't picture a Photograde equivalent :)

    And to be specific, I completely agree that cleaning is an unwise practice for the reasons you have clearly and pictorally outlined. But that is a different issue from the question of what to do about grading or "no grading"
     
    gc1111, Dec 2, 2007
    #149 + Quote Reply
  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I think you are basing your reasoning on bad information. Professional graders at the TPG's do not use a 10x loupe when grading a coin. That is a fact. Professional graders follow the proceedures I related previously.

    And yes there is a universally accepted definition of what defines a harshly cleaned or a damaged coin. It can be found in both the ANA grading standards and the PCGS grading standards.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 2, 2007
    #150 + Quote Reply
  12. nwrobbins

    nwrobbins Junior Member

    Specific situation

    Coin stored in PVC flips in a cardboard box that smelled moldy (for years). Changes can be seen in the coin from this improper storage (I didn't do this).

    Is this type of contamination going to continue to harm the coin after it has been stored properly?
     
    nwrobbins, Dec 2, 2007
    #151 + Quote Reply
  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Yes, it will continue to damage the coins. PVC will literally eat into the coin, if it already hasn't.

    Pure acetone (not fingernail polish remover) will remove the PVC and stop further damage.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 2, 2007
    #152 + Quote Reply
  14. nwrobbins

    nwrobbins Junior Member

    Thanks. I assume that would take care of any mold spores also.
     
    nwrobbins, Dec 2, 2007
    #153 + Quote Reply
  15. Indianhead65

    Indianhead65 Well-Known Member

    Im sure glad that coin collectors didnt feel this way 100 or so years ago when the 1909-S VDB was only worth $1.00 or the 1877 IHC and a number of others worth hundreds or thousands of dollars today. I'm sure you're refering to common date coins, but any type of cleaning can reduce the value of whatever coin by 50%. IMO, every coin that someone cleans totally erases it history, where its been and the hands its passed through...totally gone. Not everyone looks at collecting coins this way, but me, being a big history buff, take these things into consideration.
     
    Indianhead65, Dec 2, 2007
    #154 + Quote Reply
  16. Captainkirk

    Captainkirk 73 Buick Riviera owner

    I have a lot of 1943 steel cents that are in probably Au condition, but have a white oxidation on them. Is there a way to remove this white powdery stuff, but not do too much damage to the coin. Some are completely white.
     
    Captainkirk, Mar 20, 2008
    #155 + Quote Reply
  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Not really, it's the zinc oxidizing, turning powdery. That's why so many of them have been reprocessed.
     
    GDJMSP, Mar 20, 2008
    #156 + Quote Reply
  18. General_Godlike

    General_Godlike Dept. of Transportation

    so is it a bad thing to store coins long term in a 2x2 flip.?????
     
    General_Godlike, Mar 20, 2008
    #157 + Quote Reply
  19. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    That depends entirely on the coin. I would never any coin worth more than a few dollars in a 2x2. I've always figured that if you like a coin well enough to have it in your collection then that coin deserves 50 cents to be spent protecting it with an Air-Tite holder.

    Any coin stored in a 2x2 is always subject to damage from several different things.
     
    GDJMSP, Mar 20, 2008
    #158 + Quote Reply
  20. topcover

    topcover Change 'Ho

    Got a 1973 proof lincoln cent with a big old finger print on the obverse. Otherwise the coin is in beautiful shape. Is acetone the answer to remove the fingerprint?
     
    topcover, Mar 26, 2008
    #159 + Quote Reply
  21. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Very doubtful, fingerprints if left on a coin for more than a couple of weeks actually etch the metal and cannot be removed short of using an acid dip that removes not only the print but metal also.
     
    GDJMSP, Mar 26, 2008
    #160 + Quote Reply
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