Cups O' Byzantine...but what do they mean?

When I started collecting ancient Roman emperors I decided that I would stop at Byzantine coins, starting with Augustus and ending with Arcadius (so as not to drift into the dark ages). As my collection grew, and I would win lots with various coins, I unintentionally gathered a few neat lil and large coins from Marcian to Heraclius. I was able to identify these (for the most part) but I have a few Byzantine cup coins and have never had much luck IDing them and was hoping for some help IDing them, please.
The coins on the left are about 27x24 MM. The 2 on the right are 20x18.
Any help is appreciated.
And please post any cool Byzantine cup coins or whatever you feel.

 

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I don't see any photos

Theodore I
Mint: Nicaea
Billon trachy
1208 AD
Obvs: Christ enthroned holding Gospels. No asterisk
Revs: Theodore holding scepter cruciger and akakia. ωc left, k right.
20x32mm, 3.3g
Ref: DO 4 Type b, Sear --

 

Thank you. My typing got ahead of my picture taking...

 

Sorry man, I am not good at figuring these things out. Here's one I still haven't figured out!

 

Between imitations and issues of some of the splinter empires, there are many of these that experts might disagree on and I am no expert for sure! I try to limit purchases to coins that I might have a chance to ID but will still doubt some of my decisions. Both of these came out of junk boxes of a dealer who had plenty of junk and knew no more than I did.
Bulgarian Imitative of Alexius III?


Empire of Nicaea Theodore I?

 

kool coins Ryro, but i really like that background thingy for its colors

 

My only Trachy. Have it, "just to have it", as I do not collect Byz:


BZ Manuel I Comnenus 1143-1180 CE Aspron Trachy 35mm 4.6g Christ Gospels Labaran globus cruciger Virgin maphorium SB 1966 scyphate
Ex: @John Anthony Provider of SOUP BOWLS FOR MICE.

 

A Trachy from an uncleaned hoard of LRBs - not sure how it slipped in there...





The reverse is not so hot. Can anyone attribute it by the obverse. I was guessing Manuel Comnenus but that's by no means certain.

 

They are tough to identify without both sides being readable or at least the reverse inscription visible. In addition to Doug's imitations there are also Latin Trachys when Crusaders occupied Constantinople in the 13th century. These coins are crude and similar in size of the 2 on the right. Sear has a whole slew of them in his book, but many with no photos.

 

As Doug points out above, Bulgarian, other Balkan, and Latin Empire copies can muddy the waters in the case of partially struck or worn examples. Except for the two Nicaean and Manuel I pieces above, most of the above resemble Latin or Bulgarian imitations. Various reasons for the curious technique of the concave issues or more correct trachy (plural: trachea) have been proposed, among which are a means to distinguish debased from purer issues, an attempt to increase structural stability of thinner, broader coins, and ease of stackability. The Greek adjective "trachy" usually means "rough", i. e., not flat. Further, a paper given by Jonathan Jarrett at the 2015 International Numismatic Congress at Taormina suggests that the initial appearance of these coins with the first Bulgarian imitations of Byzantine issues was an attempt to provide a "copy protection for the Byzantine state's prestige coinage", by making these technically complicated coins harder to reproduce. Below are a few of my examples. Don't know why the first image was duplicated. Sorry! And I'm not certain if my reverse of the last coin, Sear 1941 displayed properly. Technical issues! Mea culpa!

 

The OP trachea are most likely from the Latin Empire, unfortunately the details are too few to warrant a more detailed identification.

An excellent introduction to these can be found here: http://glebecoins.net/paleos/Articl..._Imitativ/the_bulgarian___latin_imitativ.html

 

I have a batch of 3 Byzantine cup coins that have been on my "to do" list for years. I rather like them, I just need to put some time into them.

Nice examples, everyone. And helpful resource tips.

 

I have also written a very short history of the Latin Empire's inflation problems and of the evolution of the Latin trachea between 1204 and 1261, in 5 distinct articles, which can be read here: https://idlewindexpress.wordpress.com/category/inflation-in-the-latin-empire-of-constantinople/

 

Here's a starting point: they seem to be Latin issues. The convex side makes taking good images rather hard, so it's hard to see much in the pictures, but you might be able to discern more and make positive ids with the coins in hand.

 

Rather pricey but exceptional!

 

Wow. That is impressive work, seth77. I just dipped my toe in, but great stuff. The Byzantine Latin period is something I know nothing about, but have been meaning to work on - many thanks.

 

Yes, great resources here. Thank you so much for the help and starting point!
Also some beautiful, albeit perplexing coins here

 

I quite agree with both statements. You must have been watching the ebay auction? There are a few lesser examples in CNG's database that sold for nearly that, and even one that went higher.

 

edited to remove because photo would not upload.
Will try again another time maybe.
So frustrating.

 

Please do!