This kind of thing makes me angry - 1794 Head of '93 ' Lib.Cap Cent F plus extremely rare

Sold Heritage Sep. 7th 2017 for $ 408:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/large-cent...e/a/1259-4181.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

Sold Ebay as ''1794 Head of '93 ' Liberty Cap Large Cent Coin 1c Fine plus extremely rare'':
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1794-Head-of-039-93-039-Liberty-Cap-Large-Cent-Coin-1c-Fine-plus-extremely-rare-/202161575689?hash=item2f11c4d709:g:jroAAOSwLdBaQui-&nma=true&si=cMfNldDq9C7WnJcpFiu4ivci0bM%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557.

Happy the seller tripled his money in just a few months. Not so happy about the apparent misrepresentation in the listing as a 1794 head of 1793 (which it is not, it is an S-43), states the coin will grade straight if sent to a TPG (which it did not as it was bought it as NGC Fine Details), and further claims it is extremely rare (which it is not as an R-2, therefore fairly common.)

I am guessing given the short interval between both sales, that the original purchaser on Heritage was also the seller on eBay. If not, the original misrepresentation as a Head of '93 is bad enough in my opinion.

What do you guys think?

 

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Seems like he was not totally even sure. Read how he questions his attribution, then he states that he is not an expert on anything

Quote - "HI I am updating this listing with this info for this 1794 liberty cap large cent with lettered edge with 93 head?. I was told this 1794 coin has a 93 head. I also have a guidelines of different type heads listed for the 1794 straight from pcgs website listed with photos please use to referenceyourself that is truly is a 93 head. I don't claim to be an expert on Everything." closed quote

 

Yeah I’ve seen this way too much too. I see a lot of details graded coins sell on ha and be resold raw as problem free

 

I know it happens too often, add I have seen much worse cases (with fake or grossly manipulated ancients, for example), but I guess I am just getting a bit sensitive as I get older - this kind of thing just riles me.

 

I certainly don't condone this type of thing, and it's obvious in this case that the seller was fraudulent in his description, but....

The buyers/bidders are obviously bidding on something they know nothing about, and they didn't do any research about the coin before deciding to believe the seller, and plunk down $1200.

I feel the seller should be watched and reported for future fraudulent activities, but I also have very little pity on the buyers.

 

I share the frustration; this happens a lot on eBay. Years ago I used to track a seller who claimed to be a buyer of old time collections and estates; many of the more expensive raw coins could be traced to HA sales of problem coins. There is really no stopping it, buyers have to be aware of this sort of thing and do their homework.
It also points out the significant benefits of TPG grading services, in reducing risk for average collectors.

 

It is hard to understand people putting out hard earned money without the knowledge of what they are buying. There are many very poor fakes that shouldn't fool anyone sold on ebay for substantial amounts of money.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Athens-Att...301817?hash=item21359b7739:g:KEAAAOSw8axZ8mVe

 

We can't say for sure the seller is also the buyer from the Heritage sale. He may have been take by someone else, or it may be a consignment piece.

He does indicate that he is not sure it is a head of 93 and recommends that others research and confirm it themselves.

The bidders DIDN'T check it for themselves and instead just relied on his equivocal description. While the seller may be a little questionable, I put most of the blame on the bidders.

What used to make me angry is when I would see heads of 94 in major TPG slabs identified by them as heads of 93.

 

The seller took advantage of ignorance by pretending to be ignorant. Unfortunately, there are a LOT of unscrupulous people in numismatics.

 

I think you all hit the main points I was gonna make, so I'll make a side point. Do you think it's a coincidence that the NGC holder hides that large rim ding, or was it put in with the intent of hiding it?

 

Oh, I once sent NGC a flying eagle cent with a chunk of rim missing from corrosion. I just wanted it in a holder that said "UNC details". They graded it MS62 and sure enough the coin was rotated in the holder to hide the rim. THEY chose to do that. They knew it was there but decided to market grade it and hide the problem. So yes, TPG's absolutely do that purposefully. Anyway I sold it for a big discount. It brought $200 less than MS62 money, but still more than a "UNC details" would have brought.

 

I'd like to add something fairly obvious: Just because NGC called it Enviornmental Damage this time, doesn't mean it wouldn't straight grade if you resubmit it. I think most of us have had coins get different grades from the second time around, and personally I've had a coin get details the first time and straight grade the second time.

Old copper usually gets leniency with PCGS, NGC, and ANACS. I've seen worse in straight holders. (But yes, calling it head of 93 was THE most egregious thing done here. That and the ignorant description. But that's probably the only true sin here, IMO).

 

I don’t care for the apparent misrepresentation, but it’s hard to feel sorry for someone who both can’t identify what they are purchasing and would ignore the very obvious environmental damage.

 

Wow. Even with my almost non-existent knowledge of ancients, that is horrible.

 

I can understand that. I feel the same way. Another thing is at coin shows when dealers try to pass a cleaned coin as original surfaces. I see that all the time I tend to avoid dealers that have tons of problem coins that say nothing about the problems

 

I had that one on my watch list and almost swallowed my tongue when I saw what it sold for.

 

Its fake worth about 15 bucks

 

I don’t think the buyer should be blamed because a scrupulous seller provides wrong or misleading information. A type collector can’t know about varieties of all the different coin types and a non-native English speaker may not perfectly understand descriptions. Yes, you should do your homework as a buyer, but please don’t play the “I am no expert...” card and provide wrong variety/type information at the same time. The seller says “it won’t come back details”... yeah really? What about the corrosion and the rim ding at 5 o’clock? Not cool.

 

Even a type collector with half a brain would want to know which coin they're buying, or at least make a small effort to see if the 1794 coin he has an eye on that might be a head of '93, is indeed a head of '93. Even a type collector would want a '94 head of '94, head of '93, and head of '95, and would know the difference I would think. It would take a 5 second google search to figure it out. And yes, the seller should have/could have done the same, but we already are pretty sure he knew exactly what he was posting in his description, and why.

The buyer that bought this coin certainly has more money then brains. I have very little pity on the buyer, but I despise the seller. Both parties are at fault here, IMO.