Attribute This

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Marshall, Jan 5, 2017.

  1. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    This is a step by step guide of MY attribution process. It may not work for everyone.

    Whenever possible, I like to attribute the dies rather than the varieties. This means working the obverse alone and the reverse alone. If this points me toward a single variety, then I have a positive attribution.

    Sometimes, the attribution of each side is not possible and one side can be positively attributed and the reverses of the known varieties and be excluded rather than being positively identified. This still leads to a variety attribution, but not attribution of both sides.
     
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  3. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    Good strategy. That's what I try to focus on, dies, then varieties. What book or resource do you use?
     
  4. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    Breen's Encyclopedia. Penny Whimsy and photographs pf the Holmes collection supplemented by photos from Heritage archives, ANS and elsewhere as I come across them. I'm hoping to begin acquiring Noye's latest works as I can afford them when I stop running across coins I can't wait for.
     
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  5. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    Oh thanks Ill check those out!
     
  6. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I just purchased this. It's a reach due to wear, but I believe it's attributable. I believe it is my third of this particular variety.
    Obv.jpg Rev.jpg
     
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  7. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    Oh boy that'll be tricky. PCGS?
     
  8. Kirkuleez

    Kirkuleez 80 proof

    I tried, but I have no idea. Somewhere between S-92 and S-119. My best guess is S-98.
     
  9. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    On this coin, besides the positioning of the date, there is (as far as I can see) only one other attribute which would help me in attribution. This would be the position of the 'R' relative to the head. I believe I can see a very faint ghost of an R just past the top lock of hair.
    Don't have my book with me so not able to go further.
     
  10. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I believe the key to attributing this is the reverse with the position of the lowest inner leaf stem even to slightly above the top of the right loop. I believe this along with the date and acute angle between the right wreath stem and right vine narrows it down to a single variety.

    I believe the photo supports a triplet bottom inner right leaf as well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
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  11. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    Rev.jpg These are the points I am seeing.

    upload_2017-12-4_15-5-54.png

    This is the reverse from my collection that I think is a match.
     
  12. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    This is a nicer example of what I think it is. upload_2017-12-4_15-11-23.png
     
  13. Kirkuleez

    Kirkuleez 80 proof

    Shouldn’t that little dent in the ribbon just next to the area that you marked acute angle limit it to only a few reverses or is that just a matter of strike pressure? That detail seems very different than the ones that you posted as examples.
     
  14. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    While there is some variation due to strike, the shape does limit it to the device punch of the Reverse of 94 (Sheldon reverses S, U and V) or (95 Sheldon reverses H, J, L, M, N, P, Q or X), even if the rest of the loop is obscured. But that is an astute observation.
     
  15. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I was just about to seek confirmation for my new find when a little research burst my bubble. This appeared to be a 4G or obverse of S-216 paired with the reverse of S-221.

    Both Sheldon (following Newcombs lead) and Breen recognized that Sheldon's Obverse 4 and Obverse 8 were from the same die. The only difference being which was struck first and why they are different in appearance. So my new find is simply the S-221.

    The reason I thought is was Obverse 4 is the way the Letters of Liberty run into the edge of the rim as described on the S-216. It usually strikes up evenly when paired as the S-221.

    Even experienced attributors need to get back to the books at times.

    upload_2017-12-14_18-21-29.jpeg upload_2017-12-14_18-22-2.jpeg
     

    Attached Files:

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  16. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    This was just purchased from a dealer who has misattributed it as 1807. What do you think?
    Obverse.jpg Reverse.jpg

    Hint! The reverse is key to eliminating most varieties.
     
  17. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    I was about to say, that reverse looks nothing like an 1807 reverse. Then the next thing I notice is a stemless wreath. Without my references on hand, I cannot narrow it down any further, but it is surely not an 1807
     
  18. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    I did some looking around on the interwebs. It appears to be S-131. It could also be NC-8, but I doubt it. If I am just imagining the die break on the obverse, there are also S-132, S-133, S-241, and S-243 as possible candidates.
     
  19. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    I can quickly eliminate 1796 Reverse BB/1797 Reverse T on the 1796 NC-7/ 1797 NC-8/S-143, 1802 Reverse E on S-231 and 1802 Reverse L/1803 Reverse A on S-241 and S-243 from the leaf positions at (N)E and the berry at (N)E. My confidence is high in 1797 Reverse J.

    The position of the leaf under the right side of O(F) still looks a little off, but not enough to eliminate it.

    Of the three obverses, I'm leaning toward the S-132 from the position of the second highest waive of hair and the B(E) looks a little low to me, though it would be nice if it were sharper there. It may not be attributable between the three though with any high level of confidence..
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  20. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    Using peripheral vision I see a clear 1805. I wonder if because direct on your eye contains more color oriented cones than light oriented/sensitive rods on the sides to looking to the side gives a better in depth shadow analysis of the date.
     
  21. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    1805 doesn't have a stemless reverse.
     
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