PCGS vs Coin Doctors Lawsuit

It IS the only one of the two that I carried around with me in my briefcase for years. Now I carry the 3rd Circuit's en banc Langbord decision. I carry legal cases that tick off some collectors because they amuse me.

 

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Any idea what happened next? Trail seems to go cold...

And doesn't this say something about the various coin magazines, websites, news sources, etc that so much attention was given to the initial PCGS suit and then basically none is given afterward to the whole thing being dismissed and then there being this suit against them? Pretty selective in what they consider newsworthy. Make this big stink about what almost looks like a frivolous lawsuit against some coin dealers--praise the action, make it seem a foregone conclusion that PCGS will prevail, declare that this brave action has saved the industry, and then just barely follow up when it all comes to nothing. And totally be nowhere to be found when the counter suit is made. It all seems so self-serving. The messed up part is that there probably was (is) coin doctoring going on and that here they could have actuLly made a difference and instead they let it come to nothing--what could empower a doctor more!!! All bark, no bite.

 

"Mutually assured destruction" leads to disarmament talks. PCGS has enough to expose the dealers' con game, and the dealers have enough to expose PCGS' con game. So they walk away. The only guys that lose are those who obsess on what the label says.

 

I had to stop here because I don't believe that to be true. A car which is restored is not technically devalued. However, a pristine classic automobile which has never needed any body work with 100% originality will be worth far more than one which has been restored. I don't think it's possible to repaint a car and pass it off as the original paint job.

...carry on..

 

I dunno.. but if it worked out like most lawsuits: It went to private mediation, the two parties came to a mutual agreement, they signed a non-disclosure agreement and they went their separate ways.

 

Probably they still tweet to each other.

 

That isn't why and you should know better than that, the First Strike designation isn't what turned them into the dominate force they are.

 

First off, I concur that the proper cleaning of coins is not only a good thing to do, but it stabilizes the surface into the future. Coin conservation - keeping them in the best condition we can - is what we should all do.

I also concur that dipping is an accepted practice. That doesn't mean it's good for your coins. It's especially harmful to coppers.

Also, as others have shown, a dipped copper does not have anything close to natural color, and when you use sulfur to "recolor" it, you create a mineral. Copper reacts with sulfur to form copper(I) sulfide (Cu2S), which is the mineral, chalcocite. It is dark gray to black in color. When you tone your coin with sulfur ointment, your coin’s surface turns to chalcocite. You can’t convert chalcocite back to metallic copper, so recoloring with sulfur ointment irreversibly damages the coin.

 

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... or even "know" better, as an alternative. Good to see you check in to protect your business model. Where ya' been?

 

Did you actually have anything to say or is this when you're just going to start your person attack nonsense?

 

Heaven forfend that I don't go along with your self-serving marketing campaign, eh?

 

The TPGs have been so successful because it has never been a secret that there are plenty of dealers out there who will do anything for a buck.

Being an authorized dealer just means that dealer has submission privileges with the dealer terms. It's meaningless just like being an ANA member or any of the other designations people like to tout that are supposed to show their honesty and expertise.

Don't blindly trust anyone just because they say they're anyone of those things and let their own reputations and interactions form your opinion of them. There's plenty of honest and great dealers out there but they didn't become one because of an application they sent in, they earned their good reputations through how they conduct business.

 

Apparently being subject to the ANA's or PNG's somewhat difficult ethics rules for dealer activities doesn't fit in well enough with err, umm, SOMEBODY'S marketing strategy.

But hey, it's the all-new Internet culture. Anything goes, right? Because it's "easier". Yeahhhh, all kinds of things are "eeeeasier".

 

The people they brought a lawsuit against alleging fraud and rico and coin doctoring and etc etc are authorized to submit to them? The guys lasering and building up full heads with exotic metals. They are authorized right now. Hilarious. No explanation that I can see anywhere. Just dismissed and dropped and allow the coin world to speculate and shout hurrah for some reason and then counter suit and more mystery and no known resolution. Just still listed as authorized dealers. The one guy has A+ BBB rating. I don't know the inner workings of all this but I imagine that rating would be long gone had PCGS followed through with what appears to have only been a bluff or an act to publicly hurt these dealers reps. Hey Joe Schmoe is a coin doctor...and he's proudly displayed on our authorized dealer page lol. It really hurts your head to think about too much.

 

Furthermore: I've read dozens of pages of kudos to PCGS. They are all out there right now for the newb to stumble upon...a trap of sorts...dozens of pages and articles discussing the heroic valiant feat of suing the nemesis of all humble scrimping coin collectors. I think it really needs to be torn down. It's the most awful propaganda I've ever seen. Complete garbage. What really happened? Settle out of court with no admission of guilt and still authorized to submit. No public explanation? So say that's what happened. PCGS makes them pay up and says you don't have to admit guilt and you can still be an authorized dealer. Then a year later the dealer/doctors file their own suit for malicious prosecution and that is buried? If PCGS had an agreement with them that made them squash the lawsuit then why are they suing them a year later? How did that get resolved? How are they still authorized? How come no "journalist" wanted to know. How can you have all this hoopla about the initial lawsuit and all this praise and then zero follow-up. There is a really juicy story beneath all this for sure

 

The BBB is another organization whose rating should really hold no weight with anyone. Just like the other organizations they just make their money from the membership fees from the businesses they are approving. None of these seals of approval from any of them should ever sway anyone's decision.

 

Yeah I hear you..would be nice to think that if they had lost the lawsuit that it would somehow affect their BBB rating. Oh you defrauded your customers? Probably doesn't deserve too high of a score...
It's funny, one of the first links I posted in the first batch of links is one of these alleged doctor guys being interviewed by coin world or something about $20 gold pieces...it said something like "He's an expert. He's handled $20 gold pieces for 20 years"...He's handled them all right lol.

 

Let me make sure I understand. If I use acetone to remove pvc gunk or MS70 to add a little luster to a mint state coin, then I'm a horrible "coin doctor"?

Come on guys, admit it, coins are really the only collectable out there that must be 100% in it's original condition. No restoration allowed, no cleaning allowed, no anything allowed, yet the major coin and currency companies all offer "conservation services". In other words, if they do it it's acceptable and will be graded, if we do it- body bag or the notation "details".
Sent from my Samsung Smartphone

 

First, I do not believe using acetone, 95 % ETOH or Isopropyl alcohol, or xylene is coin doctoring as, none have any reaction with the pure metal of a coin, and certainly doesn't affect the metal flow lines that determine luster. It may change the appearance of the coin as removing PVC Plasticizer residue may expose metallic surface that is not toned the same as the rest. It could be called cleaning, but not doctoring IMO. I have done this many times, and the TPGs gave me a clean slab. Mirror Proofs have extremely shallow flow lines, and cloudiness can occur if dissolved material evaporates in the flow lines, so I do not use it with them. IMO Jim