PCGS vs Coin Doctors Lawsuit

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No question ever in my mind it was a marketing stunt from its inception.

 

Wow Doug, you seem to be casting shade on one of @baseball21's "sacred cows". He's reawwy reawwy gonna get upset wit choo. Once @baseball21 decides something, it's decided, after all. His posts fairly drip with that kind of pathos. Whether it's moderns, the Internet, or PCGS, all we have to know is what he tells us.

And why is that so? Umm, because those are the elements indispensable for his personal business model? Nice enough guy generally, but really?

 

Stooging.

 

It was clear pretty early on that PCGS never had any intention of following through with the lawsuit. And for these guys to be PCGS authorized dealers...well, thats just crazy, isnt it? It really seems like it was all a big publicity stunt--a scam on the consumer even. Is that too harsh? I dont know. You sue someone for fraud and rico and all this other stuff and then poof they are authorized dealers...crazy.

 

Right...even worse...

You think there's not a bunch of poor schlubs like me out there with these guys' work as the centerpiece of their collections? Their prized coin all lasered and reshaped? Not following through with lawsuit is one thing. But all this praise to PCGS for rooting out the evil doctors...standing up for the collector...cmon now...these guys are authorized PCGS dealers. Insane. Diea anyone know how things were made right between the various parties? What penance was paid? How these dealer/alleged doctors made up for what they were accused of doing over a ten year period? Was it just to pay a settlement to PCGS and then right back to work? This is where there's a big hole in the available information. All this fuss and publicity and then a black hole of information. Amazing they (PCGS) came out the other side stronger than ever. Amazing the dealer/ alleged doctors didn't seem to miss a beat either.

 

People are paying good money, hard earned post tax dollars, at very high prices for them to get it right. They should be applauded for doing their job? That's ridiculous.

 

This discussion raises some fascinating and very important issues. What is coin restoration? Is it bad? If so, when and why? If not, when and why not?

It seems that the current (arbitrary) set of rules for coin restoration are completely different from those for art or automobile restoration, where it is expected and bragged about. For coins, it is considered "doctoring," which is an odd use of a term, since doctors (plastic surgeons notwithstanding) usually cure disease, not make us look more like we did at birth. Even plastic surgery is something many think is perfectly OK. Why, then, not "plastic surgery" on coins?

We have to agree, I think, that the "rules" for these kinds of things are determined by what is considered acceptable practice in the community. But does the community decide? At the moment it seems that it just passes off the decision making to PCGS and NGC.

I think the answer is that for now those who arbitrarily decide what is good and holy in numismatics have decided that coin restoration is bad and unholy.

The tide will turn again. But when?

 

This is really interesting:

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2011/01/png-abandons-expanded-doctoring-definition.html

Here's a little look: After the smoke settled a bit in 2011, PNG voted down their extended definition of coin doctoring which got real specific...one of their members and one of the alleged doctors is leading the charge against it and quoted here...its amazing...no repercussions.

 

You also have no real way of knowing if they got it right or not. They say they did but what is that worth after admitting stuff gets by you? I want there to be an authority on authenticity and grading as badly as anyone else. Thats what this is all about. PCGS says they have been fooled. They file a lawsuit. They name names. It all goes away. The names are PCGS authorized dealers. It just stinks to high heaven. I dont understand how one can feel secure...

 

Not necessarily. Everyone screws up; it's human. The best mechanic's shop on the planet screws one up every once in a while, but is their error rate so large that you can't trust them with your car?

Like it or not, we live in a world where that sacred slab counts if you wish to maximize your chances of resale. The OP asked whether TPG's were still worth using in the aftermath of this lawsuit, and I believe they are under the right circumstances. Even though I generally dislike them intensely.

 

You and I both, man, you and I both. I especially have a Dante-esque place reserved for the P*** guys.

 

Not something I would personally recommend. Yes, I get it, they help provide more "liquidity" because the selling market is what it is, but DO TRY to get to the point where you know grading as well as the next guy, even if the "next guy" works in Florida or Southern Cal.

 

We also are to blame for this fact. The worship they get is because we ("What you mean 'we', paleface?") give it to them. Knock those dudes down a peg or two and stop worshipping them. They never HAVE deserved it, we just surrendered common sense in the pursuit of the almighty...

Stop being conned. You can do it. Just because "PCGS Authorized Dealer XYZ" says something, that does NOT MAKE IT TRUE, especially when they talk about PCGS' supposed, but frequently seen as undeserved, "superiority". Besides, the aesthetics of their slabs and their labels is frankly crud.

 

Oh and I guess the dealer/doctors did file a counter suit. Havent seen much about that:

https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2011/04/dealers-sue-collectors-universe-attorneys.all.html

I wonder what became of this. Can't find anything about the outcome.

 

That link brings up a "404".

 

Try this one:

http://www.numismaticnews.net/article/Defendants_turn_tables_in_new_suit

weird...

I found it here first:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.collecting.coins/wN8TXdyjEbU

Then figured Id provide the original source (Coin World)...Suddenly its a 404...hmmm...part of the conspiracy???



Its the first link:

https://www.bing.com/search?q=coin world dealers-sue-collectors-universe-attorneys&form=OPRTSD&pc=OPER

 

It looks like PCGS's lawsuit just got a ton more publicity. Had it been flipped, everyone's historical memory might be more like "Remember when PCGS was sued by those dealers for malicious prosecution"...lol