Question for the Dippers

It's like beautiful, pure orange. Maybe whizzed? I don't know...they look gorgeous and I (want to) believe they are original. I've seen plenty in slabs that are glossy orange, so...

 

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I've looked at too many spectrograms to let that one go by.

I can describe colors perfectly well to a blind person, in terms of intensity at a set of wavelengths. No, they won't have the same mental representation of those colors as a sighted person -- but do we really want to go down that rabbit-hole, even among a group of sighted people?

As for showing pictures, that's a lost cause as well. We've all seen photos where the white balance was clearly off, so that gold or copper looks silvery, or silver looks blue or red. Beyond that, you have no idea how my monitor is set up -- if it's close to bedtime, all your pictures will look yellow or orange to me, because I'll have the blue on my monitor cranked down to almost nothing.

Even if you're looking with your own eyes at something held in your own hand, your perception of its color depends on the lighting and your surroundings.

But we spend most of our lives working in the realm of "common sense", not precise measurements. TPGs use standardized lighting, and (presumably) standardized comparison pieces. TPG customers learn how the TPGs categorize colors, and learn to judge (or guess) which pieces will or won't make the cut. I don't think spectrometers ever come into play, although they would if I ran things.

 

....and pray that the observer's monitor settings and color profile are an exact match for yours, or they won't see the same color.

 

I've been ignoring this thread but it is time for a few more cents.

1. Saying that a dipped coin of any composition does not have LUSTER (the reflection of light from a surface) is NUTSO! What it may not have after a dip is unimpaired original mint luster!

Discussing color is very difficult as each of us sees "colors" differently - it's that way by design! Therefore discussing color without photos is . Doing it with images made with different settings adds just another variable.

In spite of all the problems, each of us must learn what acceptable color looks like to our eyes. You can do that by examining graded coins.

That said, let's keep posting images and if we don't complicate things with all our knowledge (don't sweat the small stuff) concerning light balance, time-of-day, colorblindness, on and on - we can have fun posting our opinions of images posted here.

 

We may all see the same color differently (the age old philosophical debate) but we all agree when an object is red or pink or orange or gold (cant forget gold--lots of these "red" coppers are in fact gold ) You see the fire engine; I see the fire engine; we both call it red so...Hopefully when we both look at the same red coin we can agree that "red" is the word we use to describe that visual characteristic...

I love this image and thank you to whomever created it. I hope its ok I repost it here. I believe I first saw it here at CoinTalk.




I'd call these "red" cents actually gold through orange. I think there could be one more image to the left of these and it would be pink. Freshly minted pink. The color of copper totally without oxidation, etc. Like this:



or like this (this is from an ebay seller who gets top dollar for an endless stream of coins this color--if it is even close to unc details, it will be this color):




None of these in any of these pics is actually "red".

I will take a pic later of some I have that have actually toned red. Literally red. They are all from the 80s onward and I pulled them out of circulation early in their lifetimes when they were pink. I put them away and years later I dug them out and they are all a beautiful red.

Sorry for any faux pas I may have made in this post

 

The reason is that the surface of a new coin is not virgin copper. There is a great deal of oil on the surface of new coins. Mints are factories stamping out tools on mechanical presses. And these presses and their tooling is lubricated and covered in thin films of oil to guard against rust. That gets on these shiny new coins. If you don't believe that, do a residual solvent test after rinsing some new coins in acetone and measure the weight after evaporating the solvent. I worked in a mint, and they are filthy. It's amazing such shiny stuff comes out. But this thin layer of protects the coins' surfaces against oxidation. As soon as you take it off tarnish will begin to show. That's why the TPGs don't guarantee copper - they dip the coins in solvent (acetone) before encapsulation to remove anything that may enhance the grade. They just started the time clock, and the results are a crap shoot.

 

Hmmm...I'd like to get some of this oil; I think I have a good use for it

 

TheFinn, posted: "That's why the TPGs don't guarantee copper - they dip the coins in solvent (acetone) before encapsulation to remove anything that may enhance the grade."

You have posted ^ this . Which TPGS do you work for?

If you chose not to reply, I'll consider what you posted as uninformed nonsense and therefore I think you should consider removing that sentence from your post above. It will save me four phone calls.

 

I like how one of these threads pop up every few months. Same players involved over the same conversation. Im guessing this one will go 24 pages.


Dont get me wrong though. I thnk these threads are a very interesting read. @GDJMSP has definitely made me think about old red cents and how they have stayed red, supposedly.

One question I have though. Could extreme temperatures have anything to do with keeping the original red color of copper? For instance, copper piping in a home. If i remember correctly, copper pipe that had hot water running through it kept it's original red color much longer than the copper piping that had cold water running through it. The cold water piping seemed to turn brown very quickly where as the hot water pipe maintained a red color for quite sometime. Then again copper piping might be a different grade of copper than that of cents. Might pose as a decent experiment.

 

I'm believing you

 

You keep referencing these huge numbers of red coins, what huge numbers would that be? I went over the pop reports above, there's nothing huge about the numbers on older dates. There isn't even a year showing over 1 percent of it's mintage as red for older copper.

They didn't always fail, maybe some people living in the wrong part of the country always failed but not every single person failed on every last one. Not every coin reacts the same even in the same conditions. You could say most of the time they failed but saying every time they failed isn't accurate.

TPGs not guaranteeing color is more than just it can't be done. For all they know it's going to end up somewhere like Louisana or Hawaii where it's much harder to keep the color rather than say Arizona or someone will put it in a gun safe that has guns as well ect. They're basically just saying they don't trust consumers to store them properly

Speaking in such absolutes is never accurate. The only absolute in life in death, everything else will have exceptions to the rule even when humans don't understand why. Can copper be restored to red sure on the right coin, could every coin be restored to red no. I don't see anything unusual about the distribution of red graded copper which is heavily populated with moderns and no unusually high numbers per date of older coins.

 

I don't know if this is true, but I wouldn't be surprised.

It seems a bit backward at first, because nearly all chemical reactions go faster at higher temperatures. Even if hot-water pipes spend a lot of their time close to room temperature, why wouldn't they discolor more quickly?

Well, those cold-water pipes frequently carry water that's colder than room temperature -- and sometimes, it's colder than the dewpoint of the surrounding air, which means one thing: condensation.

Now you have moisture on the outside of the pipe -- and water is a great catalyst for lots of reactions, including this one. Water makes the reaction go faster, much faster.

I'm pretty sure that's true. Copper piping is supposed to be .999 copper, as opposed to 90% copper and 10% more reactive metals.

It would be easy enough, I guess, to set up an experiment with four conditions -- cold pipe/dry air, cold pipe/moist air, hot pipe/dry air, hot pipe/moist air -- but I probably won't be doing it. Anybody have a kid with a science fair coming up?

 

Condensation from cold piping would make sense. The pipes would reach their dew point and that dew or water would change the color from red to brown much faster.

I was just spit-balling how to preserve the natural color of red copper for 150 years. If such a thing is possible.

 

@GDJMSP do you have that photo of your half-dipped cent that was really pink?

 

To have them get out (except for proofs under controlled conditions) without oil on them is unbelievable. I have overstruck thousands of new cents, and if you don't wash the oils off you will see the ghosting of the original images. Believe what you will, but I have seen it.

 

They stay red by being protected by other coins - in rolls, kegs, bags, etc. Low humidity and mild temperature fluctuations. Truly "red" copper is scarce to rare, especially over 100 years old.

 

TheFinn, what do you mean by "I have overstruck thousands of new cents..."?