Ellis Island rim Burr and more

I'm starting to come across a few rim Burrs and a lot of collar strakes. This one is still flaky.
If this quarter went into circulation those flakes would disappear fast. This looks like a color strike when they hit.

 

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Sorry, but those little 'flakes'
are not rim burrs. They don't
disappear when the coin circulates.

Just a minor striking anomaly, like so many
coins that are found in new rolls.

 

Fred here's where I am gonna disagree partner. What I've learned in some 30 years, what classifies as a burr. In coinage this can start even at the punching the blank stage.
As the dies where they have a tendency not to give a clean punch, which results in excess material.
Then you bring that planchette to the edging process which also creates access. This excess material is what's demonstrated in the first photo.

Here is the definition of burr
A burr is a raised edge or small piece of material remaining attached to a workpiece after a modification process.
Fred here are a couple better examples. These are not Ellis Island. But I'm sure I'll come across a few more.

 

On coins that is called a fin or finning. It is caused by stamping pressure forcing metal in between the die and collar. If they are circulation strikes, most will be either knocked off by other coins or folded over the rim as your picture shows, before they are rolled, but a few will be heavy or thick enough to survive for a little while in circulation.

 

Hommer
Thank you for your reply, but sorry to say that is a faults statement.

Fhinning basically is an extra thick rim on coinage-The proper term for this type of raised-extra-metal-around-the-rim error is a Finned Rim Error A burr is a burr and by definition will always be a burr. Big difference between a burr and a Fin is quite different. USMC60

 

I don't know if you find to many if any at all that has a more respected opinion than mr. weinberg. You should trust his opinion.

 

Please don't get me wrong I have respect for the gentleman and his accomplishments.
But when you're incorrect your incorrect. But when it comes to burrs I spent my working career D burrying a lot of items. From pipes to steel plates and even rifle shells.

The metal that's used in making coins is virtually the same metal used in every day production within our society.

mr. weinberg Like myself what are we human beings, capable of being incorrect.
I tried to keep my mistakes to a minimal. But being human I do make them.
mr. weinberg Has the right to his opinionIn the same respect I have the right to my opinion.
I'm sure mr. weinberg Knows the mistakes he's made in his life just like I'm aware of the mistakes that I made.
One thing I found in life even the experts are not correct all the time.
And the old saying just because you read something does not make it true.

I'm sure mr. weinberg Does not take a difference of opinion personally, I know I do not. USMC60

 

What is it called when thin raised metal is forced out from between the die and the collar at the very edge of the rim? I see this on new dimes from time to time.

 

I believe my original post above,
which is based on my viewing
the photos.

Look thru enough new coins, (mint
sewn bags, for example), and you'll
find this on various denominations.

Flakes of metal, whether clad or copper,
are found over the rims, but in my view,
but if they don't get 'folded over' the rim,
and struck as rim burrs, they are the
excess metal that sometimes we see due
to various reasons. We might not know
exactly how these types of excess metal
come across, and they might be from the
same source as a rim burr, but these
particular examples are not rim burrs in
my view.

The Cent shown above is not a rim burr,
but a rim cud.

And yes, of course I make mistakes.

 

Fred you are referring to the bottom photo of the big photos not the small finned photo.?
If that's the one you're referring to. Now I'm really confused.
I have one long time establish expert, now saying it's a rim cud.
But I've have another expert that did not believe it was a cud referring to Mr. Neff

 

Fred Weinberg, Thank you very much for your professional opinion. Unfortunately on this forum I'm not allowed to have free will or an opinion. And definitely not allowed to disagree with you. sir thank you. USMC60

 

A burr is caused by or left from improper or jagged cutting. After blanks are punched from sheets, they are ran through an upsetting mill, for purposes of which are two fold. One it squeezes the blanks to upset enough material around the edge to form the rim when struck, the other reason is to properly size the blank. After this process, the blanks are called planchets. If the sheet is of improper thickness, meaning thick and thin spots, the upsetting mill will push the too thick metal up and slightly fold it over. When struck, the excess metal will be folded into the coin but will be formed to the contour of the rim or coin. They will be visible but not raised as your coins show.

Metal raised above the rim of the coin, after striking, is either from a break in the die or collar, or from being squeezed into the small gap between the die and collar. You can call it what ever you want but it doesn't change the reason it's there.

 

Very nice textbook reply. And is absolutely true. I still preferred to call them by their definition.
1burr Merrriam-Webster

:a thin ridge or area of roughness produced in cutting or shaping metal


Burr Dictionary.com

Also, buhr. a protruding, ragged edge raised on the surface of metal during drilling, shearing, punching, or engraving.

What's the old saying if the shoe fits wear it
When they changed the definition I think of changing my mind about what to call it.
Common sense tells me any piece of metal that remains on the coins rim, either loosely or just folded over the rim or has been struck by the die and embedded in the rim. I'm sure we have some plumbers Or pipefitters on this form they can tell you when they cut a pipe may end up with burrs that have to be taken off.
USMC60

 

So, let me get this straight, it’s Ok to use one catch-all term, when describing something that can occur during different parts of the minting process, even though there is terminology to accurately describe the different processes.

Let me ask this. Is it also OK to use “grease filled die” when “debris filled” is a more accurate description of that type of error?

 

According to some members I'm not supposed to have an opinion.But since you asked.I see the outcome is the same, some form of metal on the outside of a finish coin.Whether it was in the beginning of the blanks Being made, or in the rim formation or do to collar trimming..The outcome is metal on the outside rim of the coin..

Asked this question at breakfast this morning at the restaurant, Put it to them as what is the metal on the edge of a piece of metal.
Needless to say it was overwhelmingly a burr.

And a big no on the grease filled die or struck through grease. Anyone with any common sense knows that you don't get grease oil anything around the coin.

Let me just say I've talked extensively about this with a master technician whose taking these presses apart and put back together again.

Give you an example a new coins from the mint sometimes you'll see white spots something on the coin, it shows up better on the new Coinage. That supposedly is cleaning solution that was left over after the cleaning process. This is a prime suspect For the catalysts – sticky stuff, that holds the production debris together.

Little common sense tells you look what happens when you hold a new coin in your hand. Body oil Celine and dead skin are transferred to the new coin and can plainly be seen, I wouldn't be surprised in a couple of years you start seeing more of debris filled or struck through debris and no mention of the word grease. USMC60

 

And on. As I've heard and read articles at least NGC off to a good start by not even mentioning the word grease.Good old eBay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1991-Gold-...226595?hash=item56932a8c23:g:~HUAAOSwo4pYdRiE
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1880-S-Min...229925?hash=item21317d8325:g:68MAAOSww3tY3aSS
It seems there are even going the safe route, and not even mentioning what it struck through. It can be a wide variety of production debris.

 

I'm not allowed a opinion.

 

Find it real hard to photograph fingerprints off the silver color coins. I managed to find one good soap residue, that's even hard to photograph to.

 

You ought to really like this photo. This is actually body oil that has coagulated into body grease.

 

I have to correct myself the correct term for body oil is Sebum . I found it surprising how much body oil is lost a day. Check out this website
https://www.quora.com/How-much-oil-does-the-human-body-produce-in-its-entire-life