I'll never get so lucky again. Three stage restoration of 3-Cent Silver.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by C-B-D, Nov 2, 2017.

  1. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    When it comes to what is or what is not ethical, just about everybody will have different ideas. But consider this. Pretty much every person who owns older coins, owns coins that have been dipped. And no, that is not an exaggeration, just a simple statement of fact. Fully 80% or more of all older coins have been dipped at least once, and many more than once, over the course of their lives. And yes that includes all of those MS coins you see in TPG slabs. The TPGs themselves will dip coins.

    Dipping coins is and always has been an acceptable practice in the numismatic community. Dipping coins is no different than rinsing them in distilled water, or acetone, or xylene. And does everybody tell everybody else when they do that ? No of course not. Why not ? Well because they haven't done anything wrong, they haven't done anything that is unethical. They haven't tried to take advantage of anybody or deceive anybody by dipping or rinsing the coins, and they haven't damaged the coins. In effect all they have done is to remove contaminants from the surface of the coins. So what about it could possibly be unethical ?

    I won't say it's impossible but it is highly unlikely. I say that because literally tens of millions of coins have been dipped and months, years, and even decades afterwards they are not stained. I can pretty much guarantee that many of the coins you own have been dipped - are they all, or even any of them stained ?

    Simply put, when dipping is done correctly nothing happens afterwards except for the coin to begin the natural toning process all over again. There are only three scenarios where dipping a coin can turn out badly. 1 - when the toning has already done irreparable damage. 2 - when the coin is over-dipped, is other words when the dipping is not done correctly. And 3 - when the dip solution is not neutralized after dipping, or in other words when the dipping is not done correctly.

    Bottom line, as long as the dipping is done correctly the coin will suffer no ill effects except for when scenario #1 has already occurred. And even then the person dipping the coin still hasn't done anything wrong. And I say that because there is no way that anyone can ever know that scenario #1 has occurred unless they dip the coin.

    A lot of people seem to have this idea that dipping a coin is a bad thing, that it is harmful to coins. Well it isn't, it is a protective measure. If coins were not dipped most of the older coins that everybody owns would be nothing but ugly dark brown or black blobs instead of the beautiful coins that they so greatly admire and care for. Learning how to dip coins and do it properly is arguably one the best things that has ever happened to coin collectors. Problem is many of them don't even know it.
     
    kookoox10 and C-B-D like this.
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  3. heavycam.monstervam

    heavycam.monstervam Outlaw Trucker & Coin Hillbilly

    You very well could be right, but i collect Morgans and i have a very small (incomplete) toned type set. I doubt more then 10% of my collection has been dipped.
    I can tell if a coin, especially a Morgan has been dipped. Due to the special storage conditions and the way people hoard Morgan Dollars i guarantee that dipped # is closer to 40%. If we were talking Bust Coinage or Seated, then yes, 80 or maybe even 90% has been dipped atleast once. I get what you are saying though, and i agree it is common practice. I believe this coin (like a few others)
    Will return back to its blackened state at some point, how quickly it happens is what i would be curious to see. Hence my question
     
    Rick Stachowski likes this.
  4. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    What evidence makes you think this?
     
  5. heavycam.monstervam

    heavycam.monstervam Outlaw Trucker & Coin Hillbilly

    I dont have evidence, just a hunch.
    Mainly from the light brown haze areas that were once black.
    I DID say at some point. It might be 10-20 years from now. Others are of the opinion that it WONT tone in that area. I would love to revisit this thread in a year or 2 and see what that coin looks like.
     
    Rick Stachowski likes this.
  6. IBetASilverDollar

    IBetASilverDollar Well-Known Member

    This is exactly why it's no bid deal to not even bother mentioning it. The vast majority of collectors don't consider dipped coins as problem coins by their definition and the ones that do consider them problems can make solid educated guesses on which coins to avoid.
     
  7. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    The check is in the mail...
     
    coinsareus10 and Rick Stachowski like this.
  8. heavycam.monstervam

    heavycam.monstervam Outlaw Trucker & Coin Hillbilly

    Yea yea, i know, such a BOLD statement.
     
  9. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    Especially considering the more often you dip a coin, the more experience you acquire, the more sure you become that you can't ever tell if it's been done to another unless the process was screwed up.
     
    Cascade likes this.
  10. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

  11. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Just because a coin is toned, that does not mean it hasn't been previously dipped. The vast majority of all toned coins have been previously dipped - including Morgans. And some might say especially Morgans because of their exceptional and long lived popularity.

    And yeah, I know, Morgans can be an exception because they were stored in bank vaults for many decades. But at the same time one must also realize that once they were taken out, and even prior to the GSA sales they were being taken out and had been for several decades, they became exposed to the environment and the natural processes occurred - ie toning. And it's only been for the last 30 years or so that proper storage methods began to be utilized, and to a very limited degree for a lot of that time. Couple that with the fact that prior to the turn of the century white coins were far and away the most popular, which means that most coins, even Morgans, were dipped.

    Add it all up and yeah there are some that have not been dipped, but they are the exception not the rule, just as it is with all other older coins. Ya see, I/m not denying the possibility of there being Morgans that have not been dipped. I am merely pointing out that the probability of it is still quite low.

    No you can't, and neither can anybody else. The one and only way that anyone can tell if a coin has been dipped is by using deductive reasoning. If an older coin is white deductive reasoning tells you the probability is high, very high, that it has been dipped. And if an older coin is toned, again deductive reasoning tells you it has almost certainly been dipped. But other than that, there are no detectable signs to indicate that a coin has been dipped, assuming it was dipped properly.

    Now a coin that has been improperly dipped, yes those can often be detected by the signs improper dipping leaves behind.

    Now I realize some wish to deny this is true, but that is largely because it simply isn't what they want to believe. Or, because they do not know the facts and or the history. And the facts are any coin exposed to the air will tone, and all coins are exposed to the air - always have been since there are no airtight coin holders or storage methods; and that freshly dipped coins tone just as fast as freshly minted coins. These things are facts, undeniable facts.

    And the documented history is that for many, many decades the vast majority of all toned coins were dipped. And, that proper storage methods which can help slow down toning did not even exist until about 30 years ago. And, until those storage methods did come along, and even after, the vast majority of collectors did not utilize them - and to a large degree still don't. Even today the most popular and most often used storage methods are coin albums of one sort or another and cardboard 2x2s - both of which are very conducive to toning. Then throw in the paper envelopes and cardboard tab holders that were so popular for many decades and what you end up with nearly all coins toning significantly.

    All of this combined tells us that the probability is extremely high that all older coins, including Morgans, have been dipped at one point or another in the course of their lives. For if they had not been most of them would be very dark or black by now.

    And no, you don't have to believe any of that. But what does reasoning, logic, and common sense, tell you if you do not ?
     
    Murphy45p and coinsareus10 like this.
  12. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Agreed
     
    coinsareus10 likes this.
  13. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Isn't your viewpoint that the majority of ALL older silver coins have been dipped at one time or another?
     
  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    As I mentioned before, it's pretty much accepted as fact by most knowledgeable numismatists that at least 80% of them have been. So that's a definite yes.
     
    Kentucky likes this.
  15. heavycam.monstervam

    heavycam.monstervam Outlaw Trucker & Coin Hillbilly

    What if i bought, some, not all of my Morgans from someone who pulled them straight from a 1000 ct bank bag from an estate and sent them in for grading? Would you still reason that those coins have been dipped too ?

    What of the other known hoards??
    Battle creek
    Binion
    Cortez family
    Lincoln highway
    Etc etc
     
  16. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    But what if I bought all my coins from a reputable dealer on e-bay who certified under oath, certified by Judge Jeanie, that these coins had never been touched since they left the striking dies...or what if...................................
     
  17. SuperDave

    SuperDave Free the Cartwheels!

    If it is, I agree with him. :)
     
  18. heavycam.monstervam

    heavycam.monstervam Outlaw Trucker & Coin Hillbilly

    What if...Aunt Stephanie had balls, then she would be Uncle Stephen
    This was a legitimate question, that i already know the answer to unfortunately, so yer troll trick failed
     
  19. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Look up the definition of a "troll", and perhaps while at it you can look up the definition of "humor".
     
  20. jtlee321

    jtlee321 Well-Known Member

    Ok guy's, let's stop with the back and forth. This is supposed to be a fun forum.
     
  21. TheFinn

    TheFinn Well-Known Member

    Dipping is not wrong when needed. What do you think NCS does to help preserve some of the coins they get. I would bet most of us would gasp at the thought of using some of the things they use to preserve a coin.
     
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