How do graders spot counterfeits?

I know how they spot altered dates and mint marks but how can they spot a perfect counterfeit? Do they use dating?

 

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If the counterfeit is perfect it can't be detected. It would, by definition, be indistinguishable from a genuine coin.

Having said that, there have been cases where a TPG will decline to offer an opinion on a coin, if they cannot determine if it is genuine or not.

 

Experience.

 

The importance and almost complete usefulness of that word above, "experience", cannot possibly be understated. What it provides cannot be obtained any other way. You can't buy it, and you can't read it. You have to do it, either in a formal educational seminar setting (such things exist) or by getting "up close and personal" with experts in the field and asking them intelligent questions.

 

Do like chinese and other counterfeiters use silver for a silver coin or pot metal or ? Just wondering.

 

How do graders spot counterfeits?

carefully

 

I've been in several authentication seminars and personally know a few authenticators. If you ever get the chance to go to the ANA Summer Seminar you can catch a few with their "guard down" at the Moonlight Lounge.

The OP's question is a good one. In fact, that is the purpose of taking a week long authentication seminar.

First, let's take this:

Jaelus, posted: "If the counterfeit is perfect it can't be detected. It would, by definition, be indistinguishable from a genuine coin."

100% True. That answers the OP's question and ends any further discussion. My emoji and not his.

Jaelus also posted: "Having said that, there have been [very many]cases where a TPG will decline to offer an opinion on a coin, if they cannot determine if it is genuine or not."

Furthermore, there are many cases where knowledgeable, professional authenticators disagree with each other on the authenticity of a particular coin. Additionally, there are many cases where counterfeits are so good that they are excepted as genuine until finally detected. The "Micro O" Morgan dollar fakes is the best example of this as they fooled modern authenticators for several decades even though when they first appeared around the turn of the 20th Century they were determined to be fake. Sometime in the years between they became accepted as genuine!

SuperDave, posted: "Experience."

This is the usual "canned answer" given with good intentions; however, while correct, it really tells us nothing.

ToughCOINS, posted: "I'm in absolute agreement, however I suspect the OP refers to counterfeits which are good enough to get past him / her, yet not so good as to escape detection by professionals at the TPGs."

I believe this is the "nut" of the discussion and "perfection" is not the point. AFAIK, so far the perfect counterfeit does not exist. If one is out there, it just has not been seen by the "right" authenticators.

ToughCOINS continued: "Beyond that, if the counterfeit is good enough to fool some of the professional graders, those able to detect it are likely to hold close their means of detection, sharing it only with those who can be trusted not to publish the information for the culprits to learn from."

Mostly true, however realities in the market have forced TPGS to publish some of the characteristics of many state-of-the-art "super fakes." There is no way to keep the quality of counterfeits from improving. Over the years, the examples of fakes used in the classes I've been in have improved. IMO, that will continue because anyone with the right equipment, money, access to genuine coins, a good eye, etc. can produce a "perfect" counterfeit that will defy detection for a period of time.

If I would have read ToughCOINS post further I would have saved myself some time! He posted:

"As the counterfeiters continue to perfect their craft, it becomes increasingly difficult for any but the most practiced of graders to catch their works, making whatever information that could be published of greater value to the offenders than the victims. I'm sure it's becoming a tough balancing act . . . determining when the bad guys can make more use of the information than the good guys."

@ibuycoinsoffebay I hope all of us answered your question.

PS Often the metal used for the fake depends on the quality of the fake and the purpose it was made for.

 

Some counterfeit coins are acceptable and sought after. Henning nickels for example. Fully 1/3 of British 1 pound coins in circulation are thought to be fake, but are fully accepted in commerce (up until a few weeks ago when the new coins came out). The counterfeit 1934 quarters were initially deemed genuine by the Secret Service. There are likely many counterfeits out there that haven't yet been determined to be fakes and are currently accepted as genuine.

 

You might as well just talk to yourselves, fellas; the end result will be the same.

 

Pretty sure they already are

 

Huh... good point.

 

Well, I'm glad you all are sharing your opinions here. It certainly has helped me to frame my own learning about subjects such as "counterfeiting," "what is wear on a coin?" and others. It often inspires me to read up on the subject and attempt to get better at understanding my hobby and research interests.

So, Thank You.

I'm personally glad that you don't respond with some faded-hipster snarkiness...

 

I thought about a much more in-depth reply, and then realized that someone who was going to end up good at detecting counterfeits would be able to read the entire lesson from that single word. The thought process is the same - unpacking as much information as possible from the least-possible evidence.

There is no gem of generality in the detection of counterfeits. Each issue faked has different characteristics, and there are numerous ways to create a fake, each offering different evidence. There's nothing monolithic about detecting fakes.

What there is, however, is Lesson #1 of numismatics in general, the same lesson imperative for learning grading and detecting cleaning and determining value, also the fundamental basis for catching counterfeits:

Know what a "good" one looks like.

 

Completely agree.

 

And nothing beats knowing when you are seeing something fake but looks real to most people, and the only way you know is because you have handled enough real ones that when a faked one comes along that is 'indistinguishable' from the real one, you spot it as fake based only on what might be things you normally don't measure or note as a difference, but which your brain recognizes as being off. ... For example, if you collect a certain type of china that can be somewhat valuable but is known to be widely forged as such, small minutia such as the strength or even minor color tone or impression evenness of the maker's mark could be the only distinguishing characteristic, and that is something that a brain notices and 'logs' in it's database without you really being aware you are checking that. So the person who reads up on the kind and has not has enough experience handling a real one and whose ability to recognize subtle color or strength differences is not sufficient can easily be fooled.

For coins this might be knowing where to expect part or all of some lettering to be strong or weak, having the ability to catalog in your brain small marks in certain areas of the coin, and perhaps even the width or spacing of some lettering, and such for a particular coin. Not all knowledge gained is quantifiable and provided to others in a written format or widely distributed. And many who do know some differences don't publish it, because that allows the fakes to possibly get better. And even if it was designed to be passed on, I don't think all experts could identify exactly what to look for until they have experienced a great fake that their brain said just wasn't right. Then comes the possibility of defining just what was off and why, and then being able to go and say what to look for.

For those who do fakes, the closer you can make it look real to an experienced person, the better off you are to pass it. For experts it pays them to not necessarily give out all their knowledge, especially if it is something that a counterfeiter would then 'correct' to not be an issue.

 

I completely agree as well. I rarely post questions or replies, but I do read a lot of posts on CoinTalk. Much of what I read here is material that you would not find in a book or even at a coin shop - case examples especially.

 

Exactly! Many call what you describe as the "gut reaction" a knowledgeable person gets when looking at an item. Often, they will not be sure if the item is genuine or not; yet they will know "something does not compute" and further examination is necessary.

 

Of course, but that wasn't the point, which was more of an ongoing observation of how trying to help and/or educate the OP seems a most regrettable exercise in futility.