When is smoothing and tooling too much for you?

I spotted the follwing coin for sale on VCoins I had to come and ask people here about it. We had some discussion recently on whether a tooled coin was still worthy or not.

Here is the coin in question.

Severus Alexander Æ Sestertius
Rome mint, struck, AD 226.
Obv. Laureate and draped bust right.
Rev. The facade (fountain or nymphaeum) of the Thermae of Alexander Severus.
RIC IV 449 (R3)
(31mm, 19.84 g.)
Graged aEF,Green patina, some red on reverse.
Fields smoothed, somewhat tooled, edges untouched.

It isn't cheap at Eur 4500.




So a rare type. Do you find it reassuring that the edges are untouched? That implies that everything apart from the edges may have been untouched.

The following is the plate coin from RIC that shows the As of the type so that we can see what the reverse type should look like.



This would imply to me that the Sestertius above is at best completely tooled on the reverse with low amounts of skill and nothing there is original. Look at the reverse legend which is very clunky and doesn't follow a circular pattern being forced in to what is available on the coin.

For those willing to accept tooling... does this go too far?

I must admit that I laughed out loud when I saw it.

 

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Wow. I try to avoid tooled coins. This one is not acceptable...if there is such a thing.

Doesn't matter, I would never buy it tooled or not because I can't afford coins in this price range.

 

The crudely-tooled reverse is shockingly bad. I kind of feel that the poor coin needs to be put out of its misery. I'm surprised that a VCoins dealer thinks that they can sell the thing at all.

 

Who is selling it so I can avoid them?

 

Definitely 'smoothed' and tooled beyond my tolerance regardless of the price. I try to avoid any that display tooling just as I hope to avoid modern fakes.

 

I could put it in a ring out of its misery LOL.

 

It seems a lot of high end bronze coins are tooled. I find the practice frustrating and destroys the validity of the coin as a genuine antiquity, I prefer lower grade untooled coins. At least you know what you are getting.

 

From my humble perspective, tooling and smoothing are acceptable; this, if they don't spoil the counterstamp.

 

I did a modicum of research on this sestertius and was unable to find a picture of it in any online reference.

That being said, I'm highly doubtful that the sestertius' reverse was similar to the as' reverse shown above. I just don't think the sestertius' reverse could have been tooled to be that different -- its reverse would have had to be almost completely blank before the tooling was done.

Nevertheless, I don't doubt for a minute that it was tooled. Maybe the obverse hair area of the portrait was tooled to illustrate detail that the original coin lacked. The reverse appears tooled to accentuate the lines of the structure, but the structure itself is probably correct for that RIC type.

When a dealer or auction is willing to state that a coin has been tooled, that means it has been highly tooled. Personally I will not purchase any coin that has been tooled (if I'm aware of the tooling).

 

That was probably exactly the case. I didn't find an image of a sestertius of the type either, but here we see the same structure on the reverse of an aureus and denarius.



It's the same as that on the as that Martin showed in the OP. It could not have been so different and so much worse on a sestertius of the type.

 

It looks terrible. In my opinion, the obverse is heavily tooled and the reverse almost completely recut.

 

Incidentally, the matching aureus of this type is up for sale at NAC, with a hefty price tag: https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=4101&category=108668&lot=3365425

The tooling and smoothing are very unfortunate on the VCoins example, although the dealer does note it, so I can't fault them. I too wish people would just leave coins alone as it would be very desirable in a lower grade.

 

To answer the OP question: This is way too much for me to accept. I do not consider this funny although the coin is comical.

 

OK, so let's assume that the sestertius' reverse should look exactly like the aureus and denarius rather than the fanciful structure that was actually re-engraved on its reverse. That makes this coin even less than a forgery -- it's a fantasy piece that never existed in ancient times. To me, that means the coin is completely worthless.

 

Couldn't agree more. Not EUR 4500, not even EUR 4.50.

 

Me, too, also!
While my tolerance for tooling stops a long time before it gets to this level, I see absolulely no reason to believe the coin started out as architectural. I could as well been a Spes walking. To interest me in this coin, I suggest sending it back and ask for the obverse to be converted into an Otho or Pescennius Niger. Then, I might be tempted at EUR 4.50 but only if it were done very well.

 

For me, a tooled coin is a genuine coin above all. Then the tooling is just like make-up to a beautiful lady. I do respect your points of view and your mood in buying or assessing coins, but that's just how I feel. Genuine and better looking.

 

Not to be belligerent, but if the reverse on a tooled coin bears no resemblance to any coin from antiquity, then it's not really an ancient coin at all. It's a modern fantasy engraved on an ancient flan.

I understand your perspective about a tooled ancient coin still being a genuine ancient coin (although I don't subscribe to that perspective) but the OP coin doesn't really fit that description if the reverse was a completely re-engraved fabrication.

 

I think at some point the more heavily tooled a coin is, the more more of a fantasy coin or replica it becomes.