Are CAC stickers useless on MS?

So you're saying the data bases of NGC and PCGS couldn't be breached , A coin ID numbers copied and faked? and fake inserts made ? To go along with the counterfeit sticker?
One must realize that everything can be compromised these days.
Today biggest news story... besides the news of the hurricane one of the " BIG Three" credit reporting companies had a breach of their data system which put 143 million people data right out their to the highest bidder.
So that said....how does either a number on a slab or a sticker give you peace of mind that the coin in question is legitimate?
Part of this hobby is knowing what you are doing. Meaning since the hobby has changed drastically from.... The days of us baby boomers who could fill a Whitman album from our pocket change . To a day and time one relies on a third party to tell us ,if our coin is legit, if it's cleaned, it's grade,etc.
I have said this many times and will again if you are the type of person who hates to read, or research a topic, have knowledge and understanding of history.... you're probably in the wrong hobby!
As most hobbies coin collecting can have many levels....depending on your interest level. To me my interest level has always been on a steady climb in this hobby.Always willing to learn more about the hobby from start to finish.
Every aspect of the history, process of minting or printing money are important links,not just filling holes on a cardboard holder.
So true you can't teach old dogs new tricks......however the old dog has seen all the tricks ,and can teach you how to avoid them.

 

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And a credit card can be stolen, so can an identity, and money faked, fake metals ect, if it exists someone will try and scam with it. This isn't a realization that happened just now, we have been living in that environment for well over a decade even if it is just getting publicity now.

There is a reason a lot of people pay close attention to the slab generations and the stickers ect, the people who just discard them as meaningless are the ones who end up missing out on how to identify fakes. It is the same as someone saying I won't ever look at gold then giving opinions on it

 

I have no need to ID a fake sticker when in fact I have no intention of "ever buying one. " What part of this don't you understand?
Again my eyes and experience are all I need to make a call on making a purchase.
I don't need a third party to tell me what I already know! Nor do I need to pay an over inflated price on an item that I have already researched on price point!
You all can drink the kool-aid I'm not, and again never will.
And what's funny is that your concerns on others options are only those whom align with yours account for anything....and if they don't well they are just poppycock.

 

Hey, he's right. I wonder if this guy is the TPGS professional who wears a pointed tin foil hat while grading. He gets teased a lot. However, one day...

If this member is Ol' Tin Foil (a very good possibility as he claims to be a good grader), sooner or later a slab is going to turn up with a fake "bean." Then no one can laugh.

 

And of course, some people are just buying the slab. An example from currency: back in 1990, the Bureau of Engraving and Printing reprinted the face of the 1874 $50 Legal Tender Note on a souvenir card. [The BEP still had the master die, and made a new working die, so the intaglio reprint is almost identical to the issued note, just uniface on card stock.] They are fairly common [they sold almost 8500 of them], and one is currently offered on eBay "Buy it Now" for $9.95, including postage. Some people have cut out the currency reprint from the card, and had them slabbed - PCGS will even grade them. One just sold on eBay for $99.95. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1874-50-Leg...558778?hash=item5449643cba:g:d6sAAOSwN2VZQXnC The cards don't circulate, so unless you folded it in half or spilled your coffee on it, every cut-out should grade in the high 60's. It sure looks to me that someone just paid $90 for the slab.

 

The part I don't understand is you feeling the need to comment on the counterfeit market of an area that you claim over and over to not partake in. I find commenting on things that someone ignores entirely to often be rather silly

 

Not to keep this argument going, but in my somewhat limited opinion of the grand scheme, CAC stickers are just another tool in the tool box for evaluating a coin -- a second opinion. No coin stands or falls on the presence or lack of presence of CAC alone -- or a TPG grade for that matter.

The one opinion that does count before I pull out my wallet is mine. And as Barreta was fond of saying: "And that's how that old tune goes."

 

As an authorized CAC "collector", I've a very large diverse collection of "tagged" coins, a sampling is attached.

I totally agree with your statement, but if you follow the coins of only the 2 CAC approved TPG, the reason may be apparent. I find it more evident especially with scarce coins. I believe if you understand the grading standards, it's more apparent why the CAC coins may be often just average for the TPG grade.

With the new market "standards", it appears there's often appreciable "over-grading" by the premier TPG. Thus, I've had dealers view my CAC collections, stating "I thought CAC only tagged coins that exceeded the "grade average". I then show them comparable grade/condition premier TPG coins which have my copyright NOcac red tag on the reverse, that have been rejected. My experience has been that CAC rejects appreciable more than the majority of coins submitted. The CAC coin seemingly meets the believed grade standard for the TPG being evaluated. A prominent long term certifier told me I should return the coins for the payment TPG refund guaranteed. He was serious! I just chuckled!

It's of record on this site, when someone requested a posting of CAC coins found objectionable. I posted 4 same date/mint-mark/grade, 1 by each of the "top tier" TPG. It seemingly was quite apparent which 2 were of lesser quality, with ICG the best specimen for the grade, followed by ANACS. There weren't challenges, as the CAC coin was the better of the bottom 2, meeting their average grading standard. The other 2 were better, with ICG meeting a A.N.A. technical standard for the grade.

JMHO

 

I've seen PURE JUNK in each of the four major TPGS slabs! Sometimes I have to think that somehow coins are going out the back door!

If you are going to purchase slabs, CAC is an additional protection yet there is wiggle room with the bean too!

NGC and PCGS w/bean is safer than the other two (which CAC will not examine...wonder why?). If buying ANACS or ICG which are both excellent services be careful as there is no added protection for any over graded coins in their holders that may have "gotten out the back door" as I call it.

 

No it didn't. The green sticker on the back is the Dupont hologram from the previous generation slabs.

 

You are correct!

I got my coins crossed up! Just edited my post above. Thanks!

 

If one compares the NGC AU55 coin shown in this link with the images of a NGC XF45 CAC coin of mine, they should be able to easily discern why one might consider buying coins with a "bean". 2 grades different, and there doesn't appear to be even a close comparison.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1913-S-GOLD...353207?hash=item463b955577:g:YgAAAOSwV0RXtiqx
View attachment 675763 View attachment 675764 View attachment 675763

 

If we assume that your statement is true, it translates to a "sticker" increasing the liquidity of your coin when it comes time to sell. IMO, you are taking a "cut your nose off to spite your face" attitude on the subject.

 

I am not a dealer ....I'm a collector, that said I'm not concerned with the liquidity of a coin. I am only concerned with the coin grade , and how it fits in my collection. And again that's your opinion ,"which you are entitled to," as well I am entitled to mine.

 

I think he's referring to when we all die, Paddy. There's a common belief around here that if our coins aren't slabbed when we kick the bucket, our kids and grandkids will spend them for face value or put them up on eBay for $10/each...

 

Paddy, I, and it's believed that the majority here respect your well earned right to have that opinion, as does Lehigh. He may just be a little course in his expressive capability.

After many years of collecting premium specimens of numerous types of coins as a "hobby", and interacting with "dealers", from whom I purchased much of my collection, I was concerned about the future of my "certified" collection. I knew that in all likelihood my beneficiaries would contact individuals advertising "free estate evaluations", often who are relatively clueless. They just carry an "off-white" document that states my certified mint state rare collection is worth-less, having a value of ~melt.

I found that the unlike the "top tier" TPG ratings, only a SMALL portion of a normal certified collection will meet the CAC standard of generally being extra-ordinary.

I suspect that you may know quality in your choices, but your beneficiaries may not.

It may be prudent to at least inspect CAC specimens in the future, as I, who has found their system generally to indicate relative excellence.

Warn your loved ones to beware of the individuals who need an "off-white" document to determine value. A document that may state that even CAC certified coins below an elevated MS grade are worth-less, having ~melt value.

Thanks for your contributions!

JMHO

 

Paddy54, posted: "I am not a dealer ....I'm a collector, that said I'm not concerned with the liquidity of a coin. I am only concerned with the coin grade , and how it fits in my collection."

Well said! That's the way it always was (until 1971). Collecting was much more fun. A counterfeit coin filled the hole just as well as a genuine coin! The collector was happy. Then around 1977 the INS Authentication Bureau began grading coins (followed by ANACS a few months later after the ANA Grading Guide was published).

Oh my, talk about stirring up the coin dealers. When they had enough of conservative grading, they formed PCGS to grade coins a little differently. While very strict at first, eye appeal and market factors caused a slide to liberal standards that continues today.

Thankfully, the pesky grading services and their apparent watch dog CAC don't affect expert collectors who don't need them and continue to collect as they wish. After all Paddy, that is exactly what collecting is all about - personal choices. Who cares if $100 spent today becomes $85 or $400 ten years later. When you are no longer around, your collection will take care of itself. Stick to your guns.

ToughCOINS, posted: "Sorry folks, but I agree with @Paddy54 on this one . . ."


I'll guarantee 99.8% of the other coin dealers in the country do too! That's because an "expert" collector is their best customer.

ToughCOINS continued: "The last thing I want is for someone to show up at my table with a bad coin in a bad holder with a bad bean on it [ Perhaps 4% of the millions slabbed?), and call me an idiot or worse because I don't want it at any price."

Or a raw coin that you don't want at any price EITHER. You dealers can afford to be very picky. Who hasn't heard this before: I don't need it , or You'll NEED TO GET IT SLABBED.

ToughCOINS continued: "I'm generalizing, of course, but I feel that CAC beans add liquidity in the marketplace only because there are lazy buyers who refuse to do their homework. Without those individuals to sell to, we would have a much more educated marketplace, and derive no benefit from the beans at all. Instead, we lean on 3rd party grading and beans like crutches, and become lazier by the year . . . nope, I'm not going there."

From my perspective, nothing has change since the 1970's. There are still ignorant dealers and collectors who would be in the poorhouse or out of the hobby without the TPGS "crutch." Use it or not, It's always been a personal choice.

 

How is that any different than them showing up with fake raw coins? Or better yet real raw coins that they overgrade by 10 points and 3 major value jumps.

A percentage maybe, the majority no. I know you are aware that many of the elite collectors in the hobby today respect CACs opinion, does that make them lazy?

I always find it funny that in everything in life getting different opinions or second opinions and hearing other views is what intelligent people do who are always learning and evolving and improving, but in coins if you do that you're now considered lazy and uneducated