slabbed ancients

Point 1. All collectors of Ancients like to hold them in their hand...their into history
2. They don't really care too much about whether it is a VF or a XF as long as it is clear
3. The grading companies can't grade hammered or ancient coins.

 

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that about sums it up.

 

I don't get how being interested in history equates to putting our grubby hands all over coins or artifacts (implied). I don't mind a holder.

I agree about clarity of design elements being infinitely more important than numerical grade.


I just want a coin authenticated. Not only for my confidence, but for a buyer who will probably buy it without seeing the coin or myself beforehand. That's where the value comes in.

 

I would grade this as a solid FS ("Flippin' Sweet"). I wouldn't sell it for anything.

 

If you're truly worried about it & want an authentication that will be seen to have value by most/all ancients collectors then you're better off having your coins certified by David Sear than having them done by a TPG.

The simple fact is most collectors I've talked to do not trust a TPG to get it right as far as authentication goes. Right or wrong that's the general perception therefore how much value does it have.


Slabbed coins would have a benefit for a dealer selling ancients to folks who generally aren't collectors of ancients but collect moderns. Modern collectors put a huge amount of trust in TPG's so I could see a slabbed ancient as having value that way.

 

Then you have that ICG shown earlier. Sure it's authentic, but that's all it is. Everything else about it was wrong or at least that was the impression I got. So you know it's real, but not what it is. What good it that? So for that "authenticated" coin you now have to re-attribute and grade it and then convince the potential buyers to ignore what it says on the slab. And for that you paid a TPG to slab it. The major services may be good for the US coins, but for anything else they become more questionable and the further off the mainstream you get the less reliable they become. I'd hate to see what they would do with medieval hammered silver.

 

yeah, I would trust authentication from David Sears or some of the other well known ancient numismatist than any of the acronym grading companies...These guys have decades studying these coins, have seen thousands and thousands of them…have written books about them…they have reputations in the community as being true experts. As for authentication...I wont buy a coin I haven’t seen a decent photo of and if it is a coin I think might be commonly faked...then I will run that photo by experts just to get opinions...I kind of trust my own knowledge of ancients and fakes but its good to get some second and third opinion from people who are experts and give out advice for free. I have thought a coin was fake before and then found out it was just a type I have never seen that is off the normal style.

Also...I wont buy a coin from a person who doesn’t offer returns if the coin is found to be fake down the line. I buy mainly from established sellers with a good reputation to protect.

I think, to date, I have only bought 1 fake and that is because I let myself be swept up in the moment while in Rome and I bought a Domitian coin that turned out to be a fake...this was long ago...which also brings up another point about ancients...dont buy an ancient if you dont know much about them...

 

The attribution is 600+ years off...everything was wrong on the slab...if they dont even know the different between a Greek Tetradrachm from 400 BC and a Roman Denarius from 211 AD I would not trust that they would have the slightest clue if it is authentic or not

Again though, that might have just been a mislabeling or something...maybe there is a Tetradrachm out there in a slab labeled Roman - AR Denarius - Fulvia Plautilla.

 

It seems like this is turning into a "going and getting" certification discussion. Originally I was asking about finding pre-slabbed items, so the cost of the slabbing could be somewhat absorbed, rather than slapped on top at retail rates. But I got the answer, so wherever this goes from here is dandy.

Sears, the man who wrote the book, is accessible? At what cost? You guys make it sound like he's got all the time in the world and lives just down the street. Maybe he does, I dunno..

 

http://www.davidrsear.com/certification.html

 

there arent that many people sending coins to Mr. Sears I would think as most coins can be authenticated another way and the fun in collecting is attribution thus there is no need for that service for most coins. I wouldnt send a coin to him unless it was rather expensive and his authentication would ease my mind and anyone who might invest in an expensive ancient coin. When you are talking a 3000 dollar coin, whats 40 or 50 bucks. I also believe that the ancient coin collector is a smaller group and tend to concentrate heavily on fake detection and attribution. Most collectors of ancients are hypersensitive to fakes and how to detect them and making known who the dealers are, cataloging fake types and studying the lists so they might spot one. So...maybe...they are better at spotting a fake as a whole as an ancient coin, IMO, is easier to fake because of the way they are minted.

There are some differences between ancient coins, modern and those people who collect the different types and how they approach collecting, but in the end...we are all collectors of coins.

here are a list of his books on that same site...the man knows ancient coins.

http://www.davidrsear.com/books.html

 

What it all boils down to is that collectors of ancients simply don't trust the TPG's. They would rather buy an ultra-high end coin from a reputable dealer with a lifetime guarantee.

Besides, we all know that TPG's exist not for authentication, but for squeezing extra dollars out a 70 point grading system. The authentication is there so the companies don't look like garbage.

I'm sorry if this sounds so jaded, but we're beating a dead horse now.

 

This is true but then again most ancient coin sellers...almost EVERY coin seller I buy from and any coin seller worth buying from...has a lifetime return policy if the coin is found to be fake...

Like Forum ancient coins who claim: 'All coins are Guaranteed for eternity'

Most auction houses and shops have a similar policy if they are worth a damn...this is very important for ancient coins.

All dealer on Vcoins subscribe to that groups code of ethics and they will respect an experts opinion and make things right if a fake makes it through...like ACC coins many or most go futher and say something like this:

[FONT=Arial,sans-serif]Authenticity: All items are guaranteed to be authentic (unless stated otherwise) and as described. There is no time limit on this guarantee - if you will find that the item sold is not authentic, or is not as described, you may return it any time.[/FONT]


Or Ancient Imports who say: Coins can be returned at any time for documented questions of authenticity and can be returned with two weeks for any reason--complete satisfaction is the only acceptable outcome of any transaction.


and all these sellers:

http://www.vcoins.com/ancient/

are to follow the code of ethics that reads:

1. 
   [*]I subscribe to the terms of the VCoins Dealer Code of Ethics and agree to be bound by the provisions thereof, including any revisions as may be made from time to time.
   [*]I will conduct my business in a professional and ethical manner, and will exercise common sense and courtesy in my professional dealings, to ensure that no discredit is brought to VCoins or other VCoins dealers.
   [*]I will freely share my numismatic knowledge with non-professional collectors or interested individuals and will encourage research into ancient numismatics and history.
   [*]I will promptly deliver items I sell unless other arrangements are made with the buyer.
   [*]I will promptly pay for items I purchase unless other arrangements are made with the seller.
   [*]I will not intentionally misrepresent the value of any item, and I will not take unfair advantage of non-professional customers, be they buyers or sellers.
   [*]I will take all reasonable actions to correct errors made in normal transactions.
   [*]I will not knowingly deal in counterfeits, copies, or reproductions without full and clear description of their nature. I will never knowingly represent such items as genuine.
   [*]I will not knowingly deal in stolen numismatic items. I will report such items to the proper authorities if they are offered to me.
   [*]I will vouch for the authenticity of items I sell and will have no time limit on the return of items discovered to be non-authentic. I will offer a full cash refund upon return of any such item, including the cost of return shipping.
   [*]I will allow returns within a period not less than fourteen (14) days from the recorded date of shipping or ten (10) days following attempted delivery or receipt by the purchaser, whichever is the earlier date. This return policy does not apply to group lots, items advertised and sold "as-is", items altered after receipt, or other items as specifically agreed upon beforehand with the customer. Mail bid or auction sales may have shorter limits.
   [*]I will explicitly state my terms and conditions of sale in my e-store.
   [*]I will not intentionally misrepresent items I sell, including the use of misleading images, historical conjecture, unsubstantiated provenance or pedigree, or other tactics that may artificially inflate the perceived value of an item.
   [*]I will operate in a fair and honorable manner, and will not intentionally defame the character of my competitors or the quality of their products.

This is standard policy for most ancient coin dealers worth a damn. If they sell on vcoins and they sell a fake and dont make it right...they wont be on vcoins for long...and they wont be doing business for long either as ancient collector are a close knit bunch...I have seen several dealer booted from that very important online selling resource for selling fakes and not making it right...

 

That's exactly right.

 

This is a rather interesting discussion. I am one of the people who submits ancients to be graded and I also collect ancients.

A few clarifications on the TPG. ICG, NGC, & ANACS will slab ancients. NGC is the most limited in what they will slab. ANACS sticks more to the common stuff. ICG will slab practically anything. JP Martin does the authentication for ancients at ICG. They will send out any coins that they are not 100% comfortable with. In my experience, they get it correct most of the time.

The screwed up insert on the pictured ancient coin is funny, but it is in no way an accurate representation of their abilities. I once owned a Franklin Half that was in a PCGS slab labeled as a Morgan dollar. Does anyone lose all trust in PCGS over their "inability to tell a Franklin Half from a Morgan Dollar"?

While a certificate of authentication and grade from David Sear is excellent, his prices are not. At $40 a coin I could get 2.5 coins done at ICG. He also charges $25 for Express service. That's way more than ICG would charge for Express Tier and if need be, you can always call ICG up and ask JP to speed it up on an invoice. You'd be surprised how customer friendly ICG can be.

I'm not sure what the buyers of the slabbed ancients I sell do with them. They may crack them out, but I know without a doubt that the slabbed ancients bring significant premiums. I've purchased many raw ones on eBay and had them slabbed and then I resold them on eBay. Usually they sell for 2x-3x more than my original purchase price. Clearly the buyers like the ancients in a slab. As a collector, I also like my ancients in a slab for protection and attribution. However, I find ICG grading to be way too strict so I submit very few that I do not plan on reselling.