Define "Cleaning."

I tend to agree on this, but consider your car...a cloth is much softer than the paint, however if you wipe a dirty car, the soft cloth will drag grit and dirt over the finish. I seem to remember an @Insider post where he was saying something about rubbing a cotton swab on an uncirculated coin without leaving marks, however, you know how us 70+ers are with memory...BTW, I remember one 95 year old member, @GDJMSP who is the oldest member?

 

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I STATED: "my summary"(a.k.a. known as the final statement)

 

I enjoy the forum when it's...well...informative, but this is ok too I guess. I ate a bagel with cream cheese for breakfast. The storm just past so I think we'll go back out on the pier and check the crab traps. Maybe we'll have pizza tonight...or maybe pit beef if we don't catch any more keepers, idk.
For a 70+ yr old...human you sure do give a lot of audibles for your thoughts...........Crap. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you in any way. I thought you were someone that had the ability but was choosing to act this way or that this was your schtick like @V. Kurt Bellman ...but I'm really sorry for acting that way towards you. I legitimately thought you were a kid with a swollen ego and needed a dose of reality. Won't happen again. I promise. Scouts honor.

 

There is absolutely NOTHING you can say to me that would be offensive, but don't try, you might get a vacation. This site is a fun "release" for me. I like the colors and faces as I'm a little .

One member here is going to help you in a PM. He was nice enough to image the coins. He says he knows what he is doing and I say they cannot be "fixed" w/o leaving evidence of cleaning. Good Luck.

 

Would be nice to see the method, and progression of this experiment.

 

There is an appreciable difference between generating further damage to a coin covered in residue, and removing the residue to view underlying damage, without further evidence of damage.

A coin having terminal underlying damage can be aesthetically improved, but damage is irreversible, generating an assumption of "cleaning" rather than "conservation". The difference is whether the "patient" has improved health (i.e. further damage or not).

The commercial "conservators" only improve the appearance, not reverse the condition, but we don't label their efforts as cleaning, and issue grades to their efforts.

As I stated earlier in this thread, I've several expensive Gold coins at a TPG, being notified that residue removal is suggested to facilitate a grade. It doesn't require an I.Q. test to answer the query.

We will see the possible difference in the coins re-grade.

JMHO

 

There is only the option you gave to me, that some conditions require "conservation" by their TPG affiliate to acquire a grade, dependent upon the condition severity.

You generally will not acquire a grade if politically unattended damage is viewed by the TPG.

JMHO

 

I would like to see some photos of the query? The topic is interesting, and I would like to see the process, this is not to steal,, info. but only to inform a future buyer of said coin.

Though some of you will not be able to see the coin as cleaned, a majority of said Numismatist will.

Good luck on the experiment!

 

imrich, posted: "There is an appreciable difference between generating further damage to a coin covered in residue, and removing the residue to view underlying damage, without further evidence of damage."

AFAIK, TPGS's differentiate between a "residue" which can easily be removed in most cases no matter what it is; and "black corrosion" that has destroyed a coin's surface. There are ways to make corroded coins more attractive. Unfortunately, much of the time these efforts can be detected by another conservation specialist. Several of the coins in your test appear to be corroded to my "untrained" eye. They will require several steps of preparation before you even get near the final dip.

"A coin having terminal underlying damage can be aesthetically improved, but damage is irreversible, generating an assumption of "cleaning" rather than "conservation". The difference is whether the "patient" has improved health (i.e. further damage or not). The commercial "conservators" only improve the appearance, not reverse the condition, but we don't label their efforts as cleaning, and issue grades to their efforts."

Oh, yes we do if their work can be detected (not market acceptable).

"As I stated earlier in this thread, I've several expensive Gold coins at a TPG, being notified that residue removal is suggested to facilitate a grade. It doesn't require an I.Q. test to answer the query. We will see the possible difference in the coins re-grade."

You can be 95% sure if they ask to "fix" your coin it will straight grade...possibly even upgrade. No news here. While I highly recommend NCS (if that is the place) AFAIK, other TPGS's do this work also. One of them does not charge for the service!

imrich, posted: "You generally will not acquire a grade if politically unattended damage is viewed by the TPG."

ZOOM! That's the sound of this post going right over my head. I assure you I can read yet have not idea on this one.

 

Politically correct? Tpg's don't judge a coin by ethnicity, or gender?

or, are you saying sometimes your work is caught and then sometimes not.

 

Yeah, I heard a podcast a while ago (CoinWeek Apr 15, 2016) and it was an interview with Don Willis of PCGS. He was asked, a couple times, what the restoration process entails with PCGS. All he would really say is that nothing is added to the coin to improve its surface. That tells me that something is being removed. So is it only acceptable for a TPG to shave a "layer" of the surface of a coin off, chemically or mechanically, to make it pretty again? And as long as they are providing this service are they guaranteeing the coin to grade higher and, in turn, be more valuable?

If this service is provided by the same TPG grading it will they mark the label "cleaned" or "restored" or does it just get slabbed with the higher grade and they call it a job well done?

If a restored coin was sent to another TPG as a crossover and it came back "cleaned" would you ask the restoring TPG for your money back?

Would you crack it out then send it in to keep a TPG from making a statement with your investment? And, again, if it came back "cleaned" would you ask the restoring TPG for your money back?

 

Cleaned is Cleaned period.
Circulation looks completely different.

 

I get to try helping you with something!

I may be wrong, but I think the statement meant that if a homeopathically doctored coin gets caught by the TPG it won't grade, but, at the same time, if the TPG doctors a coin and the doc sends it along unattended (doesn't tap the grader on the shoulder and say, "hey, Vincent, remember last years Christmas party" *wink*wink slowly hands tray to grader) it may get caught and not grade. That would be pretty embarrassing.

 

I'm not good at spotting the MS echelon, but if it's cleaned, by collector or TPG, the label should reflect it as such. Just sayin.

 

Which bring us full circle to the OP

Define cleaning

 

I'll attempt to simply answer your general questions, and others will probably amplify/elaborate. The subject of cleaning/conservation in the Numismatic "industry" is akin to the practice of law in the legal "industry". Anyone can do it, but if the process isn't as a group of "practitioners" dictates, the outcome may not be acceptable in the "industry".

It's believed that the general public doesn't understand the services of a TPG and its affiliate "conservators". I believe that like death and taxes, the only absolutes when utilizing a TPG is that you'll get an opinion, for which you'll pay a fee. The TPG will attempt to authenticate, and affiliate conservators may attempt to suspend deterioration without further damage. I bekieve one will find there aren't any other absolute guarantees, nor should one expect same by the inferred/stated "limited" guarantees.

I believe one will determine that there aren't uniform industry standards for grading by the TPG, and there's appreciable competition between same. The industry is generally unregulated, so to expect any community cooperation when discussing similarities/differences, may result in frustration, possibly hostilities. The "cross-over" process may be found generally futile and quite expensive.

I've now sent you images of "mint state" coins which have varying degrees of natural degradation which can be expected of 70+ year old coins in normal storage as some have dictated acceptable, on this site, in a 10 year study. Conservation processes can be applied to these coins which will not further damage the coins, and generally improve their appearance. Will these coins be found acceptable for a grade without the services of an affiliate conservator, as Kurt will tell you "NO!!"(1 coin maybe).

Hopefully, I can end this controversial thread with my past summary statement: "The recommendation to not clean coins is believed to be very good advice"

JMHO

 

My novice definition would be removing any foreign contaminants/materials from the coins surface. It is that simple, isn't it?
(ps your podcast is the other coin cast that is in my feed. Very informative and entertaining!)

 

Actually, no it is not. That is a definition for simply the sake of a definition. "Cleaning" has meaning to collectors only in so far as it describes attributes of the coin that have been compromised or disturbed. That is the reason coins are labeled "cleaned." They are labeled "cleaned" for and only for encompassing those noticeable, objectively-verifiable attributes. It is those attributes, and not the label, that are/is meaningful. Am I making any sense at all?

 

Thank you very much for your input. I value answers from a reputable source. I also look forward to this cleaning project. I'm no metallurgist or chemist, but these types of "experiments" with a proven process are fun and a good learning experience for me.

 

moneycostingmemoney, posted: "Yeah, I heard a podcast a while ago (CoinWeek Apr 15, 2016) and it was an interview with Don Willis of PCGS. He was asked, a couple times, what the restoration process entails with PCGS. All he would really say is that nothing is added to the coin to improve its surface. That tells me that something is being removed. So is it only acceptable for a TPG to shave a "layer" of the surface of a coin off, chemically or mechanically, to make it pretty again?"

Anyone can learn how to clean (conserve) a coin. When it is done in a way that it is virtually undetectable, it is a good thing. So, if no one can prove the coin is not in its original state - either unc or circulated, it is considered a natural coin no matter what was done to it - even if lubricated fingers were involved!


Cleaning coins properly is as closely a guarded secret as artificially toning a coin. Well almost. Actually not really as many attempt to do it and like to spread their ideas on how to clean a coin. Unfortunately, most of these attempts are easily detected.

Cleaning removes things from a coin. The only thing added is what is used in the process. Adding anything else is either a repair or fraudulent surface alteration.

"And as long as they are providing this service are they guaranteeing the coin to grade higher and, in turn, be more valuable?"

This is incorrect. There is no guarantee of the outcome; however, if they continuously ruined coins, it would hurt business. Now, Only a fool would think that a conservation service would not be a little more tolerant of the actual condition of a coin that they conserved. Upgrades are not handed out unless the coin upgrades.

"If this service is provided by the same TPG grading it will they mark the label "cleaned" or "restored" or does it just get slabbed with the higher grade and they call it a job well done?"

Answered above.

"If a restored coin was sent to another TPG as a crossover and it came back "cleaned" would you ask the restoring TPG for your money back?"

You can ask for anything but you will not get it! This sort of thing goes on all the time. One service will slab a coin as original; yet if the identical coin (graded original by another service) was sent to them, there is a chance they will reject it.

"Would you crack it out then send it in to keep a TPG from making a statement with your investment? And, again, if it came back "cleaned" would you ask the restoring TPG for your money back?"

IMO, always better to send a coin in "raw" except in cases where the coin is "honest" and graded correctly. Then keep it in its slab. This does not go for SEGS, ICG, or ANACS. Always send these in "raw." Why should NGC or PCGS let you know that the second tier services grade the same but cheaper and faster!

moneycostingmemoney, posted: "I'm not good at spotting the MS echelon, but if it's cleaned, by collector or TPG, the label should reflect it as such. Just sayin."

Not at all. You'll need to learn/understand the difference between "Improved eye appeal -no harm done" vs "impaired."

I NOMINATE THIS FOR FEATURED POST:

imrich, posted: "I'll attempt to simply answer your general questions, and others will probably amplify/elaborate. The subject of cleaning/conservation in the Numismatic "industry" is akin to the practice of law in the legal "industry". Anyone can do it, but if the process isn't as a group of "practitioners" dictates, the outcome may not be acceptable in the "industry".

It's believed that the general public doesn't understand the services of a TPG and its affiliate "conservators". I believe that like death and taxes, the only absolutes when utilizing a TPG is that you'll get an opinion, for which you'll pay a fee. The TPG will attempt to authenticate, and affiliate conservators may attempt to suspend deterioration without further damage. I bekieve one will find there aren't any other absolute guarantees, nor should one expect same by the inferred/stated "limited" guarantees.

I believe one will determine that there aren't uniform industry standards for grading by the TPG, and there's appreciable competition between same. The industry is generally unregulated, so to expect any community cooperation when discussing similarities/differences, may result in frustration, possibly hostilities. The "cross-over" process may be found generally futile and quite expensive."


AND ADD THIS TO IT:

eddiespin, posted: "Actually, no it is not. That is a definition for simply the sake of a definition. "Cleaning" has meaning to collectors only in so far as it describes attributes of the coin that have been compromised or disturbed. That is the reason coins are labeled "cleaned." They are labeled "cleaned" for and only for encompassing those noticeable, objectively-verifiable attributes. It is those attributes, and not the label, that are/is meaningful. Am I making any sense at all?"

PS I too think one coin can be saved and passed as original.