Define "Cleaning."

Here you're absolutely correct. In fact, stupidity is rampant, with a bullet. Makes it all the more important to teach the newbies well.

 

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....and we (you and me) do not want them experimenting with their fingers.

 

So are you implying the entire statement surrounding it is false or that this is the only part you care to agree with at this time?

I have no problem admitting that I'm still a new newbie (have only been taking this seriously for a few months), but I sift like a sieve and what makes it through gets absorbed like a sponge. That came from good examples and bad experiences. I know this is a coin forum and not a life lesson forum, but cmon now. Mistakes are a part of the learning curve- whether it's paying to much, asking too little, buying a counterfeit or choosing to clean/cleaning a coin improperly.

I saw nothing here that I thought was grossly negligent, maybe something you would see in no publication, but is rubbing a coin with your fingers, lubricated with something chemically proven to do no "harm" to that particular metal or alloy, THAT much of a detriment to a coin? There should be no Yes or No answer to that question. It is a case-by-case situation that no cookie-cutter method should be the approach. Example- cracking proofs out of slabs and soaking them in lemon juice and olive oil (probably not a good idea btw) and rubbing circulated coins with slippery fingers. Coins that probably spent years in circulation, jingling around in pockets, purses and coffee cups with other coins.

Yes, I know, some would rather see the crud on the coin and assume that it isn't a synthetic compound added to its surface to hide imperfections, but that it hasn't been improperly "cleaned," but it looks like dirt and that makes them happy. Yes, some methods can be harmful to a coin's surface, but, at the end of the day, it's their coin. If they've already chosen that they would rather see what they have all gussied up than at current state that's the open door to suggest what you've done that's been successful, what has been a failure and embed the practice of telling someone that wants to buy their cleaned example that it has been cleaned and what method was used. That's not misleading, that's teaching.

 

moneycostingmemoney, posted: "I have no problem admitting that I'm still a new newbie (have only been taking this seriously for a few months), ..."

Welcome to coin collecting! This is a great beginning. It shows maturity that you know your limitations.

"I saw nothing here that I thought was grossly negligent, maybe something you would see in no publication, but is rubbing a coin with your fingers, lubricated with something chemically proven to do no "harm" to that particular metal or alloy, THAT much of a detriment to a coin? There should be no Yes or No answer to that question. It is a case-by-case situation that no cookie-cutter method should be the approach."

Actually, there is a simple answer. Yes, keep your fingers where they belong and not on your coins. Rubbing your lubricated fingers will virtually always hurt a coin. How much depends on what was on the coin, what was on your fingers, how long you rub it and how much pressure is applied. You have a lot to learn, enjoy the trip.

"Yes, I know, some would rather see the crud on the coin and assume that it isn't a synthetic compound added to its surface to hide imperfections, but that it hasn't been improperly "cleaned," but it looks like dirt and that makes them happy. Yes, some methods can be harmful to a coin's surface, but, at the end of the day, it's their coin. If they've already chosen that they would rather see what they have all gussied up than at current state that's the open door to suggest what you've done that's been successful, what has been a failure and embed the practice of telling someone that wants to buy their cleaned example that it has been cleaned and what method was used. That's not misleading, that's teaching."

??? Anyway, we are caretakers of our coins for generations to come. The number of ruined coins by folks who should not touch them grows larger by the minute. Have fun!

 

I've enjoyed your open-minded discussion enough that I will locate/send you a mint state Mercury dime that has been stored in a recommended holder for more than a half century.

This method of storage will often generate a blackened area on a portion of the coin, possibly ultimately covering the entire surface. I would pose that you should try to remove same by an unapproved process that I'll describe, viewing the surface after the various steps.

Unlike believed lesser informed who'll demand that certain activities aren't applied to coins, I'll suggest a process for possible restoration which is relatively simple. The coin will be yours to keep when the process is completed, for no charge, and you decide whether the process severely irreversibly harms the coin. The process will be incremental so that you'll view the deteriorative effects of the residue, relative to the conservatory process.

If interested, just P.M. your name/address.

I believe you'll become a believer in using your intellect, rather than those who haven't a solution as requested, but only unfounded criticism/scepticism.

Sceptics without solutions in my mind are the nemesis of education, as they yell/scream louder and longer in their close-minded tirades.

JMHO

 

Hey, I remember you... Thanks for your input, but I'll take words on maturity from those that aren't young enough to be one of mine. That didn't mean that young people can't be mature, but if you were you would know that saying something like that to someone that is older than you isn't a smart thing to do. You open yourself up to a slew of learning that obviously hasn't happened to you yet, so I'll take it easy. You're wrong. You are answering a loaded question with one word. You don't have enough information to form a direct and intelligent answer. What kind of coins are they trying to clean? Is that how they want to build their collection? Understanding and maturity come from experiences and upbringing. It's something you can't rush or force...it just is what it is when it is time. You can think that oil from your skin will melt your coins...I'm not going to kill that Easter bunny for you. I just ask that you reflect on something for a minute. It requires no knowledge of chemistry or metallurgy (different from numismatology). Imagine what coins are and what they do, where they go and how long they last. Think of all the hands and trays and bags and pockets that have touched them thousands upon thousands and thousands of times. Does it seem logical to you that if you are already protecting it that you can't touch it? And by it I mean the obverse and reverse of the coin. I can see wiping it before placing it in a sealed slab or other protective casing so that the oil doesn't, OVER TIME, damage the natural coloring of the coin, but do you honestly think that the skin on your fingers is so tough and strong that you can damage or wipe the devices clean off of it? See that is an example of a non-loaded question. All the angles are covered and give you the opportunity to form a direct and intelligent answer if you have one you want to share.

 

@imrich I am grateful and honored that you would place this task of disproving the establishment in my hands as I am an admitted novice and have no knowledge in the arena of "properly" cleaning coins. Because I am a believer in innovation by means of experience, and am always eager to learn from those with actual experience, I accept this challenge. PM on its way.

 

It's always nice to be new in a field. I have seen college students dismiss Shakespeare as "stupid" because they don't understand the language or the customs of the times. Coin collecting is OLD! Many things have been proposed as harmless (yes @V. Kurt Bellman I seem to remember in my mis-spent youth advice that scrubbing with baking soda was OK) that have been abandoned. You are, of course, allowed and encouraged to experiment with whatever methods you should choose (as long as they don't hurt your dog), but please experiment on modern worthless coins instead of MS or near MS coins. Consider...uncirculated and proof coins have an appearance that tolerates little error. Well circulated coins are...well circulated and are prone to the vicissitudes of fortune and it is really hard to damage them further. One of the ways guaranteed is to leave chemical residues which will rot them away. Lubricate your fingers, if you wish while handling old coinage, but clean it off before you store it. For MS examples, handle them gently, by the edges, with clean, dry hands. Happy collecting, be sure and share, positive or negative.

 

Good luck. Sounds fun!

 

Yes, by all means, do anything whatsoever that "blows your skirt up", but please, then very much DO come back here and regale us with your complaints about how much the next dealer or auction house that sees your coins wants to disparage your "unique conservation methods".

 

Well I am NOT a newbie, having been a SERIOUS collector for over 50 years and having given seven Money Talks at ANA conventions and 5 years as an ANA National Volunteer, and now a certified ANA exhibit judge, too. I have taught and been a student at serious numismatic courses. I am reluctant to do many things that even instructors say is "okay". I ALSO know that people who don't "know coins" are drawn visually to cleaned coins, because of "ooh, shiny". That does NOT make it a good idea. Serious numismatists don't do that junk. I STRONGLY suggest there are a few posters on this thread who BADLY need to come to Denver in four weeks and sit in for a hour at "Coin Collecting 101". They teach it several times a day.

 

No need to be so modest You left out that you are an accomplished musician. I guess those skills were developed from tooting your own horn so often. "Practice makes Perfect"

 

Come to the dark side ...

... where coins are gleefully cracked out of slabs
... where every coin has been dug up out of the ground and has been cleaned at one time or another
... where, despite cleaning, you imagine the coins still bear traces of pagan altar smoke, ancient olive oil and wine, gladiator sweat, and centurion's blood!

 

I saw this last night .

"moneycostingmemoney, posted: "Hey, I remember you... Thanks for your input, but I'll take words on maturity from those that aren't young enough to be one of mine. That didn't mean that young people can't be mature, but if you were you would know that saying something like that to someone that is older than you isn't a smart thing to do. You open yourself up to a slew of learning that obviously hasn't happened to you yet, so I'll take it easy. You're wrong. Am I? You are answering a loaded question with one word. You don't have enough information to form a direct and intelligent answer. What kind of coins are they trying to clean? Good point! "Fingering" or scrubbing a circulated coin is different than doing it to an Uncirculated/Proof specimen. Nevertheless, it is not recommended to clean circ's as they usually turn out ugly. Is that how they want to build their collection? AFAIK, there is no way yet to protect coins from the uninformed. Well, I guess a sealed slab works so I'm wrong. Understanding and maturity come from experiences and upbringing. It's something you can't rush or force...it just is what it is when it is time. Hopefully, you'll reach that stage ...when its time. You can think that oil from your skin will melt your coins... Actually, corrode is a better word. I don't know you but I'm going to share a secret that the mature collectors know. Try this. Get a brand new shiny copper cent and finger it up with your soft pinky. Put it aside and watch it. By the time your prints appear, I'll bet you'll have a totally new opinion of the folks trying to help you here and touching the surfaces of your coins. I'm not going to kill that Easter bunny for you. I just ask that you reflect on something for a minute. It requires no knowledge of chemistry or metallurgy (different from numismatology). Imagine what coins are and what they do, where they go and how long they last. Think of all the hands and trays and bags and pockets that have touched them thousands upon thousands and thousands of times. There is a big difference between circulated coins and coins that show no signs of circulation. We differentiate them by assigning grades. Mature (knowledgeable) collectors know how to handle coins. Does it seem logical to you that if you are already protecting it that you can't touch it? And by it I mean the obverse and reverse of the coin. I can see wiping it before placing it in a sealed slab... Perhaps you should adjust your glasses. or other protective casing so that the oil doesn't, OVER TIME, damage the natural coloring of the coin, but do you honestly think that the skin on your fingers is so tough and strong that you can damage or wipe the devices clean off of it? Actually, the devices will remain and if you have any contamination on your fingers you will leave chemical or abrasive traces on the coin's surface. See that is an example of a non-loaded question. All the angles are covered and give you the opportunity to form a direct and intelligent answer if you have one you want to share." Just did, hope you learned something...I sure did!

 

You boys and girls are way too fond of your labels. Some of you see a small rub or a hairline, and that is it, you freak out, "Cleaned!!!" You are like you caught a dangerous felon, and just brought him to justice. Why do you not instead simply keep your eyes on the coin and try to determine in what way(s) it may be impaired? Then, just value it, accordingly. Forget the label. It is not getting you anywhere except in meaningless, esoteric debates...

 

Imagine coin collectors getting involved in lengthy arguments about trivial details. Thanks for the reality check. I should go see if there's any pro wrestling on TV.

 

It appears that you and Kurt are from the same school! Kurt espousing: NEVER, EVER (i.e. only absolutes in life generally are Death and Taxes), and you stating: "I can see wiping it" WOW!

The coins to be cleaned are 4 raw mint state "Mercury dimes" with varying degree of natural environmental damage from a ~MS64 FB toned condition, through black streaking to a ~MS61 with a black splotch.

The devices and fields are generally pristine without rub or dings, hand selected so that cleaning effects will be evident, although the coins will be imaged during various processes/stages.

The process will be private as part of the learning process agreement. We don't want to offend the Numismatic Expert/Guru or his minions, but will transmit proprietary information to "open-minded" individuals of a progressive new school of thought.

Although several have grasped a portion of my post, all failed to read/comprehend my summary, thus: "The recommendation to not clean coins is believed to be very good advice"
Educational "discussions" with individuals of such limited vision is believed definitely a futile exercise to which one of normal intelligence should avoid.

JMHO

 

imrich, posedt: "It appears that you and Kurt are from the same school! Kurt espousing: NEVER, EVER (i.e. only absolutes in life generally are Death and Taxes), and you stating: "I can see wiping it" WOW!"

What that means is I probably look at coins a little closer than most. Wipe it and and it will probably be visible to me. BTW, I'm not yelling at anyone. I want the opinion to be seen, just as you have done. Since I am not posting between your lines, I'll just use color.

"The coins to be cleaned are 4 raw mint state "Mercury dimes" with varying degree of natural environmental damage from a ~MS64 FB toned condition, through black streaking to a ~MS61 with a black splotch."

Send me one to clean too!

"The devices and fields are generally pristine without rub or dings, hand selected so that cleaning effects will be evident, although the coins will be imaged during various processes/stages.

Please feel free to send me the "before images" so I can give you some suggestions.

The process will be private as part of the learning process agreement. We don't want to offend the Numismatic Expert/Guru or his minions, but will transmit proprietary information to "open-minded" individuals of a progressive new school of thought."

What? Very . Is the point of your instruction that you'll be using your fingers to show the new kid how to hairline coins? That is an admirable thing to do.

"Although several have grasped a portion of my post, all failed to read/comprehend my summary, thus: "The recommendation to not clean coins is believed to be very good advice"

I agree, Perhaps this advice from you was posted earlier in the thread.

Educational "discussions" with individuals of such limited vision is believed definitely a futile exercise to which one of normal intelligence should avoid."

Well, in that case, I'll promise not to block either of you as the rants are entertaining.

 

Welp, I've never seen a 70+ person use so many emojis to convey emotion to what should be easy to write. Although speaking on eccentrics... I have seen people going into Bromecon at the convention center behind walkers...idk. Regardless, my feelings are the same as they were before I read your post. Metal>skin. Sorry, not sorry.