Uncleaned Ancient Coins

@moneycostingmemoney Hi MCmM! Did I recommend those crayon thingies? I did purchase them, but I got busy with real life and haven't had a chance to get back to my coin cleaning fun.

I did decide, after reading and feedback from others here that OO is probably not the best way to go as it may serve to darken the color of the coin and I want to see what I really have under there.

About the crayons, though, someone here on CT did write that they had great success with them but when I looked at the videos on YouTube, I did not see them working on any ancient coins with them and I see that what they are removing from the coins on those videos is caked on dirt. That doesn't look like what I have on my coins. I just don't see how the crayon could be used on my coins without leaving scratches on the surface. I don't want to damage these coins. "First do no harm" comes to mind. I do not like the idea of simply ruining a coin and saying: "Oh well! Next!" You know? So, maybe that also has a lot to do with being slow to get back to the activity.

I am beginning to feel that although I own these delightfully precious pieces of tiny artistic antiquity, (even the crusty, cruddy ones), I hold them in trust for Future. I do not want to do anything to damage them. What if Future is unhappy that I cleaned them and would have preferred me to merely hold on to them for her? Can I not enjoy simply doing that? I think I can! Does that mean I am more of a coin collector or guardian?

I am thinking about, and understanding more (I think) why, @dougsmit would have liked a separate place altogether for a discussion of ancient coin cleaning.

So much to think about, learn and discuss with others.

 

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Generally speaking the few people I know that have bought uncleaned lots have usually got little or nothing for their efforts. The few coins they did get that were identifiable were basically badly worn or corroded examples of fourth century Roman bronzes (Constantine I to Honorius) which are basically worthless. An individual contemplating such a purchase should look around the web, find a really nice coin and buy it. Also buy some books on the subject that interests you as well. Then study the coin and try to learn everything you can about it.

 

Sounds like your first incipient success is a Provincial Roman issue from Viminacium. They have a standing female allegorical personification of Viminacium with a bull on one side and an lion on the other - like this:



The Province of Dacia had a similar standing personification flanked by animals, but you find those less frequently than the "Vims"

 

Yes, I agree and I believe my original response to this post to this was 'why'? Why bother with this junk? It costs too much and you wont be left with anything you will likely be proud of (certainly nothing worth the price paid). About 1986 I bought a lot of uncleaned coins and got this (the rest were complete garbage):



Sure, its a decent coin, and individually it cost me about 50 cents. But the rest were junk (I dont remember, I may have thrown them in the trash). Ultimately this cost me about $30 at the time. Back in those days that same amount of money could have garnered me such coins as this:



Which would you rather have?

 

A fair question, and an easy answer if the process of buying and cleaning is simply about the product, the coin itself. I haven't kept up with this thread, so I don't remember what the OP motivations were. But for myself, I will never discount the learning I gained by working through about 100-125 uncleaned coins in my early days. Today when I buy a coin, I still learn something. But that lovely Philip the Arab coin above is going to come to me in a flip with all the attribution details filled in. With uncleaneds, however, you have do earn every #^$* letter on that legend. You have to squint to make out that reverse image. Is that FORTUNA? Is it ANNONA? And what is she holding? And when you do nail it, it's like finding the lost piece to a puzzle. Very satisfying. Who cares if it's an $6 piece of junk? Maybe only my heirs.

With that having been said, I generally don't buy uncleaneds anymore, and the quality has gotten much worse, so I have slow my roll a bit on praising the process.

But I would not discourage a novice collector from experimenting, as long as he or she has appropriate expectations. After an experimental period, perhaps they can "graduate" toward finer coins from auctions and dealers. That was my path.

 

I dont disparage anyone wishing to learn about the coins or about how to attribute, research, etc. I have always promoted learning and (I know, I am a broken record here) to buy books.

Not everything can be learned free from a website (assuming that website is even correct!). But the underlying concept in all of these uncleaned coin threads seems to be that one will find monetarily valuable treasures hidden amongst the junk. 99.9% will not.

Sure, there are those rare instances where one does find good stuff. Back in the days of The Celator (horrors, a print magazine!!!!) one reader related a tale of finding a Roman gold Aureus in a junk box (for a few dollars or cents, I dont recall specifically). Its the only instance I know of such a thing happening and while anything can occur, little ever does.

Back in the early days of Ebay scammers would show a picture of a giant pile of junk uncleaned with a single small gold coin on top, often with some such heading as 'gold found!'. Back then they used Indian fannams (real, and genuinely gold, but only 100 years or so old and completely unassociated with what they were selling. Worth about $10-15 at the time, so a good teaser for buying coins at $1 each. Beware, most fannams on the market now are fake).

Am I being hypocritical? Quite possibly. In my beginning days as a collector I bought one such junk lot (the remaining coin illustrated above). Did those coins have value? Yes, they taught me never to buy that kind of material again. Also, in the early 1990's I did sell that kind of material once upon a time, but later felt bad about it and ceased selling them. Who knows, maybe people found lots of gold in my lots!?

 

I think there's still some salting of lots for photo purposes. Even though I said that I don't really buy uncleaneds anymore, I did buy a modest lot last December. Mostly 4th-century coins with only a few keepers. But the photo had a Trajan as in F condition on top of the pile. It is highly unlikely that a Trajan as got mixed in with a hoard of 4th-century coins. It was clearly tossed on top to give the novice collector the illusion that such goodies would be found deeper in the pile. So yes, I completely understand where you're coming from when you talk about some of the predatory practices common among sellers of such lots.

As I've stated before, perhaps a happy compromise might be to buy large lots from [VCoins] dealers, which crop up from time to time. Typically you see all the coins you will be purchasing, likely still at bargain prices, with the fun and education of the attribution process. Cleaning, however, probably won't improve such coins much, so if someone enjoyed the cleaning process, these might not be a good option. But I always enjoyed attribution more than cleaning.

 

Hi LCT! Indeed you did! The baked on grime that in dealing with is pretty ridiculous, but I've been taking my time and not gouging the coins. I've been using all 4 crayons and am finding each one (less the two picks, each is doing the same thing) to have great purpose. I use the scalpel at plane with the tops of the flat devices and stop when the metal is close to being exposed. With the picks I trace the devices and the meche I use to lightly go over the whole coin until it stops dirtying the cloth I check it on, again stopping if it looks like the metal is close to being exposed.
It's all in what you feel is the best for your experience. I don't think future you will regret giving it a shot unless present you (at the time of success/failure) doesn't see it as a learning experience. I look at the coins I purchased to try my hand on as canvases that will be trashed so all I can do is improve from there. My work ethic keeps me from allowing that to happen at all costs, but I'm realistic in seeing this as my first attempt. If it ends up being a $5k coin that I trashed...so be it. It didn't cost me that much therefore I only lost the few dollars I spent to get into it. I do, as well, respect these tiny pieces of artistry past, but the only way to do it is to do it to it.
I have read that the OO will darken the coin, but I figure anything is better than the finish it had when it came to me. I don't feel I'll be doing it a disservice by giving it a little tan. I just hope that once I finish I will be able to attribute it and learn from it. Even if I destroy what's left of the coin it will stay in my collection and be a postcard from this venture I embarked upon.
I think either way you decide to go with your coins you'll be happy with it. But if you do decide to scrape away please share your adventure!

 

That very well could be it! The legs of the animal on the right are different, and the vimi looks smaller, but there's still a lot of crud to go before I'm sure. Thank you for that. Ill use it as reference while cleaning so I can stay away from the tops of the raised devices. Is there a date range for the coin you posted here so I can do some reading on it while the one I may have is soaking?

 

Again, I appreciate your input and I'm serious in saying that. But I'm obviously going to keep at it until I quit. Whether that's after this $50 investment or thousands upon thousands of dollars later...probably before that, but you know what I mean. I'm not buying them as scratch off tickets hoping to get rich im doing it because I understand how I learn best and hands on is my thing. I'll still keep the slugs as a reminder not to buy that type from that seller. I may even send it to get graded just for the fun of thinking about the guy who opens the envelope and sits there scratching their head thinking "is this guy serious? What am I supposed to do with this thing?" I don't look at this arena of my collection as a moneymaker or hedge. It's for fun. I still enjoy the US coins that I do catalog with value, but they just don't give the same type of excitement as this process is. And I'm still shopping for nice examples of ancient and medieval coins. But I won't come near them with a pick or scalpel.

 

Exactly. I haven't even been doing this a month and the experience has taught me much, even beyond the coin and starting to map out resources for attribution. I'm enjoying it with, what I think are, reasonable expectations. I'm expecting nothing grandeur and only hope to learn from the experience. The part you mentioned about nailing a piece of the coin- it IS indeed very satisfying. It's what's keeping me patient enough not to rush and chip through a device and lose a piece that I want to have and will need in the end.

 

That is exactly why I'm staying away from lots. The same instance you're describing has burned me with more modern coins, so I'm only buying exactly what I can see; and if it comes and is anything other than...back you go with accurate feedback attached.

 

Well, dont waste you money! It might be funny but it would cost you. I am pleased that you mention you are learning from the experience. Thats what its all about. That and the history. At this level, forget about the money. Revel in the knowledge.

Also, I like your avatar. When I was younger I rode sport bikes (didnt officially race, but, well, we do stupid things when young!). I also still pick up pennies on the ground....

 

I know, people will look at this and see a dinosaur, but its the last bike I ever had. Never should have let it and riding go, but that is life.....

 

It may be a classic but I can appreciate the earlier street racing bikes...mid-late 80s there? I mainly stuck to dirt on two wheels but my cousin was into the street bikes at that time. He had the Ninja and, as many adrenaline junkies do, he ended up wearing a halo for 6 months...not saying that can't happen in the dirt, but a tree is an inanimate object=my fault. Another passenger vehicle with possibility of an inept driver=too much risk for me. After my son I hung the helmet up and went to 2 wheels with myself as an engine. This was my pride and joy (not actual, google helped)

 

I dont remember. I bought it about 1993 or so. My picture is also Google. Mine had a black seat, no racing stripes. Bought it from the local dealer who repo'd it and I got a bargain. They were cheap then. A basic sport bike then was about $3,000, now about $10,000 (though a small bike half that). I too had a run in with a very large tree, but was in a VW.

 

Might I suggest a different approach when deciding your next uncleaned coin purchase? Look for a smaller lot or single uncleaned coins with good detail showing, and be willing to spend a little more per coin. It's really hard to tell with coins that are mostly slugs whether your efforts are doing any good or not and most of the time if you can't see details up front they aren't there(with some exceptions). With coins that have some details showing, you're still running a risk that you'll either destroy the coin or that underneath the remaining dirt you'll find a corroded, ugly coin, but you'll at least know up front that it's not a completely worn down slug.

When I look at an uncleaned or partially cleaned coin like this, a few things jump out at me. First, I can see in some areas like a 9 o'clock on the obverse that the encrustation is layered and the metal underneath seems to be OK - that's a great sign. Additionally, I can still see some fine detail in the beard, the wreath and the eye that even under dirt seems to suggest the underlying metal is good and I don't see any signs that the coin is more brittle than usual(usually you will see places where silver has already broken off) nor do I see any evidence at this level of any pitting in the fields or anything like that. That gives me confidence that this one isn't a lost cause and will do well with further cleaning - there could still be some surprises but I at least know going into it that the odds are in my favor.

Before:
After:


It's definitely scary as heck cleaning a coin like this your first time but much more rewarding than anything else I ever cleaned(or tried to) and I learned so much more than I did cleaning those lots of coins for about the same price overall(~$75).

 

@red_spork Nice work on that nice coin!
The only thing I'm hesitant about is spending that much on something I may ruin...at this point. I feel like I can learn with these cheaper pieces I picked up and not feel too bad if it ends up looking like I did it with 80 grit. If I'm still enjoying the experience and see improvement with my technique and final product I'll be more comfortable going in on something like that in that range.
The first pieces I got came from an old dirty coins site and I picked the coins blindly from supposed eras. As far as I can tell the coins that are coming back, slowly but surely, are from when they said they were. However, had I known one of the medieval coins, the holy land coin and the Byzantine would be in the shape they were, I would have saved myself about $15 not going in. But then again the seller may throw a couple slugs in with coins that may turn out OK just to keep someone from complaining about the lot as a whole.
My last purchase was from the bay and I could see enough markings on it to know it wasn't going to be a waste of time(to me that just means cleaning for nothing). It came to my door for less than $5 so I figured...what the heck. I'll give it a shot and see what happens. From what I've cleared from it so far I've taken it to this

From this

(I apologize for the photos, the originals I had to rip from eBay because I was so eager to get it soaking I forgot to do the before pic) searching the markings I found a silver Spanish peso from 1739 that matches this side, but the other side doesn't match at all. I still have much soaking and scrubbing to do, but just bringing that coin that far in a couple days has really motivated me to keep at it.

 

I buy uncleaned lots from eBay, i have one i brought which really surprised me i bought 10 VG to XF roman imperial coins for 30. there was a beautiful Hostallian which goes in the 100-200 dollar range. i started collecting about half a year ago and my collection consists of about 25 emperors and a lot of other imperial coins from the same emperors. most of them are common but about 5 are rare. is my collection okay for how much time i have been collecting? (g to xf) sorry no pictures




Thomas,

 

Only you can answer that. Have you enjoyed the process? Do you like you coins?