Here is an interesting Chinese Cash piece.

Any thoughts?

 

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i have never seen such a coin before.. the closest I seen is a Yuan rebel Tian You Tong Bao.

 

Looks like lead or pot metal.

 

The edge ring looks a little crude, but I'm not sure if that's normal or not for that issue. I know Chinese made lead coins on occasion. If it is that, it could be genuine. But if it is pot metal, I'm not so sure.

 

It's lead and looks 100% authentic. Therein lies the rub. Every thing about this coin seems "right," except the characters resemble a couple of different coins, but are not on one single coin. And of course, it does not necessarily have to be chinese, just seems like it.

 

Can you post a pic of the reverse? I am not getting good vibes from this one.

 

Nothing on the reverse except the rims, of course. I don't have a pic, presently.

 

I cannot find a Tian You Yuan Bao. Plus the coins from this period are made of bronze. Plus the caligraphy is completely wrong for this period.

https://www.zeno.ru/showgallery.php?cat=818

 

Do you research Chinese cash? Do you have the reference books? I ask because the coin's authenticity has been questioned by a member who seems to know the field ; yet you say it looks 100% authentic, except...

I'm confused .

 

Considering I have an extensive collection (including Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese, etc.) from bridge money/ant nose/knives/spades, etc. up until modern cash and have done this for a good while, I think I'm qualified to comment on the potential for this coin to be legit (understanding that legit in the world of Chinese cash is a hard definition to establish). If you knew the series, you would understand that legit does not always mean issued by the government and referenced in a book. There are always exceptions and new discoveries in the land of Chinese cash. Even "experts" disagree on particular issues. Having viewed thousands upon thousands of cash type coins, sometimes it comes down to a feeling based on the look and feel of a particular piece. It doesn't always have to be, "Hey, here it is right here in this book or on this internet page." Consider that I have coins that are in Ding Fu Bao or Schjoth or Hartill that aren't listed in all three or even two, where do you decide who is the authority? Also, understand that I am saying, in hand, there is nothing that screams modern copy, it "seems, feels, looks" like a legitimately executed piece from an older period in time than last week even though the characters don't point to any particular piece. Furthermore, any expert in Chinese cash would never issue an opinion about "real or fake," so to speak, without holding the coin in hand and examining it, unless it was completely obvious. I don't read anywhere here where TypeCoin made the declaration that it was fake (not legit, again, a hard to define concept for Chinese cash). As Loong Siew stated, he has never seen such a coin before...neither have I. But, any collector of Chinese cash would tell you that not having seen one or finding it referenced in a book does not automatically mean it is a fake coin made in a factory three days ago (incidentally, the coin was in a collection that dated to the 60s., so at worst, the coin was made in the fifties).

 

First, I don't read anywhere in this thread where anyone wrote your piece is a fake. Until your post, only one member said he had never seen a piece like this before. Now the number is two. Although I thought all cash was a brass alloy - I don't count as I'm ignorant on the series. Recently, I did write in another thread about cash that there are probably plenty of unlisted pieces.

Secondly, I appreciate knowing more about your qualifications as now I can place more weight on your opinions. How many white metal pieces of cash are in your collection? How many have been published? Based on your credentials, perhaps you have an unlisted, unofficial, or bandit issue rather than a fantasy. Maybe it's a trial strike or pattern.

Anyway, I learned something here. Genuine Chinese cash coins were still being struck well into the twentieth century. Good luck with your piece. I look forward to reading much more about it here.

PS I have never heard an expert authenticator in any coin series making an assessment of a coin based on "feelings."
I've been told those pieces either go out as "No Decision" or "The opinion of consultants are divided."

 

Insider, after reading my comment and how it may come across, please understand that I am not trying to pump myself up or brag about my collection or push anybody else down. I am just trying to explain the only way I know about the weird world that is cash coins...probably one of the many reasons that NGC and PCGS will not authenticate them. I'll give you two other crazy examples. I have another strange piece that is not listed anywhere. Some of the people that have seen it say it's a well known fake. Others say it is an extremely rare piece that is worth a lot of money and have offered me on the coin. My perspective is that I would say, to the best of my knowledge, that it is 100% not legit. I just don't "feel" like the coin is a properly executed piece from the perceived time period. But, there are people who want to buy it. Example 2 explains why I won't sell it and why the legitimacy of a piece is in the eye of the potential buyer. I was following some cash lots in the last Hong Kong auction (I think it was the last HK auction). I am not able to travel to HK, so, after reading the descriptions, looking at the pictures, etc., I decided on one lot to go after. It was 202 pieces of cash coinage that I just thought was the best lot, even though there were lots with several thousand pieces that were going cheaply in my opinion. So, the lots all go by and I'm waiting for my lot. I'm going to get this lot no matter what it takes and have saved up the money to go get it. Bidding starts and I don't even have time to put a bid in before it is several thousand dollars. I watch in awe as it closes over $50,000. What was in that lot? Which two people saw a coin or coins that were that rare and legit to warrant such a price? I will never know, but man would I love to know the exact 202 coins in that lot. This is purely conjecture with no facts, but does that mean that the auctioneers and any experts they may have let see this lot to determine an estimate didn't see this coming. If they did, why wouldn't they separate such a piece or pieces and let everyone bid on them separately? I don't know, but $50,000 for 202 pieces of cash that were determined to be somewhat unworthy to stand alone on their own is unfathomable to me.

 

I was delighted to read your qualifications! More power to you. The reason none of the TPGS touch these coins is because no one working for them is qualified to authenticate them. THEY ALL LOOK COUNTERFEIT because of the way they were made. Locked away in museums in China are genuine pieces. Chinese collectors grew up with them. When I was growing up, the only cash I saw were attached to sewing baskets...LOL!

I have a large book, Chinese Currency by F. Schjoth to look up the "junk" (sorry) I buy when they are cheap enough. Nevertheless, who knows when they were made or if they are genuine. I use many of them to "throw the I Ching" for fun with friends.

As to the lot you missed...at least two collectors wanted something. Perhaps now the under bidder will get one and then no one else will care.

 

Thanks for sharing @Insider . I can only comment that I have not seen this coin before and the closest I seen is a Tian You Tong Bao. Having collected Asian coins myself I agree that there are unpublished coins and also possibly those which could be Annam issues which I am sadly unfamiliar with. No offense meant and i did not meant in any way a judgement of fake.

 

I have dozens of unlisted varieties and types. They are not worth much, though. A few of them are even lead.

As for your coin, the "Tian You" inscription implies that it was cast by Zhang Shicheng between 1354 and 1357. All of his coins had a calligraphy that was similar to the slender gold script, which was used on many coins of the era. Your coin has the Li script. That alone is not enough to call it "fake" per se, but I think it is extremely unlikely that it was cast any time near the Yuan Dynasty. The fabric reminds me more of Song and Ming coins than aything else. As few official coins were cast from lead, it is also possible that it is of contemporary private manufacture.

 

Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion of authenticity on this coin? I already have my conclusions.

 

I have no idea. All I know it was not me. I don't even have a significant fraction of that amount invested in my education.

 

It could also be a charm. I looked through a thousand or so entries and didnt see it listed, but I am busy today and didnt look very closely.

 

Impossible to tell without holding in it my hands. I don't see anything that screams fake. I am not in love with the execution of the top and bottom characters, but the other two seem fine, at first glance. The reverse looks heavily corroded so I would not want to use that as a determinant. Based on a picture, I would not say that it is fake, but I would not purchase it for my collection, characters are not "sharp enough."

 

I have looked through all three charm books and have yet to find it. Although, I must say, after 50 or so pages, the characters all become a blur, so I easily could have whiffed.