More orange coins

Not to labour the point, but added paint can be removed too - though use of solvent and abrasive may cause damage to underlying paint. That seems to me to be the same case. We all know that the patina on a coin is part of the coin's appeal and value. It's not the same as the original physical character, I agree. But the fact that the dealer we're talking about has chosen not to advertise that his patinas have been added, despite agreement with Vcoins, indicates that the market also prefers original. I accept of course that your honest description of added patina is a different case.

 

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I am not debating the point that undisclosed manipulation of a coin's appearance is ethically questionable at best - be it paint or sand. At worst it is simply dishonest. However you have again ignored my point that in Israel and among Judaean collectors, it is considered normal.

I fully agree however that the dealer named absolutely should disclose where a patina has been added. When this isn't done it certainly will confuse people not able to differentiate between 'genuine' earthen adhesions and the artificial added kind - a distinction this thread has been unable to make, which I hope my posts have at least helped to remedy.

 

Thanks again for taking the time to reply. It's clarified where we agree and disagree and raised my esteem for your firm. I didn't mean to ignore your point, but going back to my analogy I don't think some people accepting a practice is germane to assessing its legitimacy. But I appreciate your perspective on this and grateful for your thoughtful response, even if disagreement remains.

 

Salem, Salem, Salem..... a puzzling fellow.

Years ago, prior to the mummy debacle, Salem posted a very expensive coin that he was thinking of re-patinating and asked for opinions on Forum. It opened my eyes to the fact that many desert patinas are in fact artificial. Since I don't view most coins in hand before buying, I immediately stopped looking at any and all sand patinated coins. My choice. I avoid an entire class of coins now. Why bother to guess what was original and what was artificially enhanced, when there are so many other types of coins out there.

On the other hand, Salem does get some nice Roman Provincial Tets that are not artificially patinated. I bought my Philip from him. Beautiful coin.

I can't figure out what is going on with Salem and his orange coins, but I solved the problem by not buying any a very long time ago.

I guess the lesson here is, know something about the coin you want to buy before you buy. Know the dealer you are buying from before you buy. Caveat emptor

 

Just playing devil's advocate here, but so is it only a legitimate practice if you and people you know accept it? It seems to me that it is a perfectly relevant consideration - you're discounting a whole sector of collectors and saying their opinions are worthless. I don't like coins with artificial patinas either, but I don't shout down collectors who buy them. The market will of course always vote with its feet - if you don't like the Athena coins, just don't buy them. Tell him so if you feel particularly strongly about it. He'll get the picture soon enough.

 

I think what Rich is saying is Salem knows some collectors don't like what he is doing but enough others do that it doesn't matter to Salem if we all avoid his coins. He is being successful selling to a different community.

 

I always think it's great when a representative of a major dealer/action house takes the time to reach out to the collector community to address a concern so big cudos to you all over at Roma.

I think it would be more accurate to say that the coin is being "minimally harmed in the short term" when it comes to glued on patina. Chemicals in some glues (such as chlorides) and some soils that contain sulfides etc. can indeed accelerate corrosion of bronze alloys in the medium and long term. It's is impossible to know without knowing the exact composition of the artificial additives. I think this practice will not be looked on kindly by future generations of numismatist (such as tooling is now) for this very reason.

I think this should absolutely be taken as a compliment in this manner and more directly a reminder of the trust the community puts in reputation over all else. When new members get burned by fakes or ask for direction it is not uncommon for members to point them toward Vcoins or auction houses such as yours. That is because there is trust that these venues will protect new collectors from deceptive practices as much as is reasonable. I didn't see the Roma coins in question but it sounds like they were labelled responsibly. That doesn't seem like it is always the case on other venues.

 

I'm saying that the fact that a section of people hold a view doesn't make it legitimate. We have to assess on its merits. My view is that a fundamental ethical principle in dealing with any historic artefact is first to do no harm. Don't add a pretty red hat to Rembrandt, or paint a mythological scene on an otherwise plain Greek vase. Even if it looks prettier afterwards or some customers like it. And in any case I think the fact that the seller is so keen to avoid advertising the fact that he's added the patina speaks volumes about the balance of opinion on the question.

 

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" Are ancient coin collecting STANDARDS the SAME as modern?