Why are toned coins so popular?

A lie. They are two different coins.

 

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I would like you to explain to me how you can tell they are not the same coin?

The guy advertises that the proof mintage of the 1903 Morgan Dollar was a scant 755 coins. The one he sold in January came back ungradeable by PCGS. If this coin is not the same coin relisted, then it becomes extremely likely that he is selling counterfeits.

 

Prove it!

 

All you have to do is compare the photographs with a keen critical eye. There are physical hits on each that the other coin lacks. But then, you're the "expert" who has sold all of 2 coins on eBay in the last YEAR!!!

 

The photos are deceptive, and this is a proof coin, what hits are you talking about? You pass yourself off as an expert on photography and photoshop and when I ask you to prove they are different coins, your response is to compare the photographs.

Well, I have, and I don't see anything definitive that sets them apart. Furthermore, what are the other options to these two coins being the same? You want us to believe that this seller has stumbled across 2 separate raw proof 1903 Morgan Dollars from an original mintage of 755? Or do you want us to believe that he has a group of counterfeit Morgan proofs that he is selling?

As for my coin sales, I've mentioned once already in this thread that I am not a professional coin dealer and I use E-Bay to liquidate collections I'm no longer working on or duplicates from my Jefferson Nickel registry collection. That said, I've sold hundreds of coins over the years. It occurs to me that I don't remember you ever creating a thread featuring a coin from your collection.

 

Okay, I've gone and looked at the 1903 proof on my MacBook Pro (Safari, El Capitan) and my Samsung S5 (Android Marshmallow, eBay app). On those two platforms, I'm seeing the same thing you see on your desktop: a medium-resolution photo. I zeroed in on the artifacts around the edges of the letters in the GSC logo; those are an instant tell for actual resolution.

I'll try it on an iPad when I get home tonight. I'm wondering, though, if it's just a combination of perceptual issues (not bad eyesight, just a brain doing what brains are supposed to do with visual input) and your particular desktop video card and monitor. I'll be able to tell more tonight after the iPad experiment.

 

Let's go to the numbers, shall we? Even if (and we both KNOW this isn't true) EVERY 1903 proof Morgan that has been submitted to NGC and PCGS has only ever been submitted ONCE (i.e. there is NO SUCH THING as "cracking out" ), there would STILL be almost 200 of them out there raw.

Now, what is the resubmit rate? Add THAT number to the 200 or so. Not hard to imagine a guy with that kind of volume seeing 2 in a few months.

When I see, as I have, dealers at ANA shows unabashedly cracking coins out of slabs to resubmit them, BY THE DOZENS IN ONE SESSION, I'm going to assume it's a "thing".

By the way, I wish we could get to the buyer of that 1903 from the winter. The picture YOU posted looks VERY much like "improperly cleaned" to me. It looks like the fields near the denticles are very dark. But that's just a guess on the grounds PCGS rejected it.

 

Do you even collect coins? Having 2 coins from a population of 755 from over 100 years ago hit your inventory at the same time is like hitting the lottery.

I'm wondering what lengths you would go to to defend this seller in the face of overwhelming evidence.

 

Whatever. By the way, he has another proof Morgan (an even rarer date) closing tonight. Raw. Again. There are these things called mini-hoards. Maybe you've heard of them?

(That oughtta set him into throes of apoplexy.)

 

It doesn't always happen it seems to be some sort of app glitch that randomly occurs. I've seen it on my iphone app before where the app shows a completely unedited version of the photo while the website shows shows the edited version. I remember about a year ago I had a listing where the website showed my cropped photo that was just the slab but if I looked at it on my app it was the pre-cropped origional showing the background around it as well. Appeared to be completely random why it was showing a few that way and others properly.

My guess is his app glitched it and showed their original photo without any editing and may have done that from the app not being completely updated since one of the updates was supposed to patch that issue.

 

Thanks. If this ever goes away, I'm gonna be one distressed pup! I LIKE seeing what I'm seeing on the iPad. I MAY be safe. The iPad2 is maxed out at iOS 9.3.5, and the iPhone is already at 10.3.2.

 

More like NO evidence, but then, no surprise. In one five-minute interval tonight, he will close three auctions, each of which will garner RAVE feedback. And that's 50% more than you all year.

 

I've always done all my photo editing before uploading to eBay. Does their lister offer photo-editing features? I'll try to remember to look the next time I put something up.

 

You just had an epiphany a few pages back that photos can look different based on the platform you view them on, so this probably isn't the best time to appeal to your own authority, in the form of your "keen critical eye."

Ad hominem. I for one am shocked.

Paul has made hundreds of transactions on eBay and through the various coin forums over the past 10+ years. I've bought from him before and have never had a problem, he's professional from start to finish--including providing accurate photographs of what his coins look like in hand. Gasp! Something that GSC doesn't do.

This seems to be your favorite one-two punch, Kurt.

Here we have another ad hominem.

Yeah, he's a poker player. A damn good one too, we used to have weekly CoinTalk poker tournaments--he's wiped the floor with all of us who were apart of that group at one point or another. Before you start damning all us poker players, if I recall correctly it was Doug's idea to have the group in the first place.

And referring to grown adult men as "kids" is priceless, especially ones who convey professionalism on a consistent basis in their postings and transactions.

Another appeal to authority. That's a nice award, but it means nothing to us on a coin forum. As Paul stated, it's about the content you produce and how you approach and help others. I'd like to weave that idea into another ridiculous statement you've made, but I'm hesitant to say it's an appeal to authority because it's just so silly.

"Not that anyone should give a rip"--then why even bring it up in the first place?

But since you did, I'd like to expand on Paul's response. Likes were implemented relatively recently in CoinTalk history. (The site was founded around the turn of the century). Back when these forums were more lively with rich discussions, 2008-2010, CoinTalk had a "Thread/Topic of The Week" feature, where members of this forum could all nominate one thread per week to be TOTW. We also had an "Exhibit" thread series that ran in conjunction with this for a little while. Paul was a powerhouse in pumping out phenomenal educational threads that gave him TOTW honors quite a bit.

Most of our old crew who could remember these times vividly are long gone, whether they be deceased, lost interest in the forum, or lost interest in collecting. So I'll speak for more than just myself here when I say that Paul has been fundamental in the numismatic education of a lot of us. If you want more proof you can feel free to dig up Paul's old threads and see how well he has been received over the years and the type of content he has produced.

Moral of the story is "likes" don't mean anything; their most useful purpose is cutting down on people quoting a post and saying "I agree" or "+1" or "HAHAHA." What matters on this forum, and on any internet community, is what you have provided to the community, and Paul has taught hundreds of us over the years a thing or two about a thing or two.

Conversely, and though I don't post as much as I used to I do lurk often, I cannot for the life of me think of one example of something you've posted that had me clicking "add to bookmarks."

Now I'd like to delve into GSC a bit. They have an awful reputation on all the coin forums and for good reason: they're dishonest. It's always been that way. They give generic descriptions, blanket grades, conveniently angled photos, juiced photos (saturation, hue, B&W, contrast, etc. all out of whack), and plenty of weaselly disclaimers. And they have a history of being very lackadaisical in giving returns.

Beginning collectors, as Paul has pointed out, will buy from them thinking they got a steal on a "GEM BU++" rare piece that grades XF45 at PCGS that forces them to learn a several hundred and even a several thousand dollar lesson. For years, members of all coin forums have told newbies to stay as far away as humanly possible, because GSC is the definition of too good to be true.

Since we're on the topic of 1903 proof Morgans, let's look at some from GSC:

Here's the one Paul provided a link to earlier:



The auction for the above coin was titled: "1903 Morgan Silver Dollar PROOF, Gorgeous Solid Gem PF++, Only 755 PR's Minted!"

- 13 bidders
- 30 bids
- $2,200.00 sale price
- Closed on 1/27/2017
- Feedback left by buyer: "Coin is fraud, cannot be graded by PCGS, do not buy raw coins, doctored photo."

Here's another one:



The auction for the above coin was titled: "1903 Morgan Silver Dollar, Deeply Toned Choice Gem PF++, Only 755 PR's Struck!"

- 11 bidders
- 38 bids
- $2,767.43 sale price
- Closed 4/18/2017
- Feedback left by buyer: "Item not as shown. No contact at all after return. Ebay had to step in to pay me"


And here is the relist for it:



The auction for the relist was titled: "1903 Morgan Silver Dollar, Deeply Toned PROOF, Choice Gem PF++, Just 755 PR Made"

- 13 bidders
- 22 bids
- $1,731.00 sale price
- Closed 5/12/2017
- (Couldn't find the feedback, either hasn't been left or was positive)

And now we have the current auction at hand:



The auction for the above coin is titled: "1903 Morgan Silver Dollar, PROOF, Very Tough Gem PF++, Just 755 PR's Minted!"

At the time of this post:
- 6 bidders
- 9 bids
- $1,625.00


Now the first and fourth auctions could very well be the same coin; proof coins can give a lot of appearances in different lighting setups and camera angles. However, even though I don't think that those two coins are the same, I can't give them the benefit of the doubt. GSC specializes in trying their absolute best to conceal problems on raw coins, problems that could hinder the coin's ability for it to be graded. (A stroll down GSC's feedback shows that, with the first auction in my post being a prime example). They've been doing this for years.

It's suspicious to me when high volume sellers, that clearly do this for a living, do not send off coins that are higher value to TPGs. Newbies and inexperienced collectors will get burned again and again by buying rare coins raw, and watching GSC auctions alone for the past decade has proven this. GSC has a right to do whatever they want, they're not doing anything illegal, but they're being disingenuous, and that is why so many of us have a problem with them.

 

This may or may not be useful to your question. The rate at which GSC auctions close is about one every two to three minutes, and they are fixed time auctions, which means they were ADDED to eBay at that same rate. That implies a VERY automated process of listing items. High volume, low human input.

 

That's why it was some weird app glitch. I cropped it before uploading to eBay too and for some reason the app turned it back to its original. I haven't noticed it in a while but Kurts still using an older version of the app

 

Just to be clear, my iPhone app is up to date because it's a 64-bit device, OS, and app. The iPad is a 32-bit device, OS, and app.

 

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Okay, let me give YOU a little history.

1) I never gave a (...) about any online anything concerning coins or numismatics, and I'm beginning to wonder strongly why I ever changed that.

2) Randomly after ANA 2014, I became BOMBARDED with random emails to check out "CoinTalk". Okay, I looked.

3) What I saw appalled me. More misinformation and disinformation and outright lies about factual things I knew of FIRST HAND that happened at 2014 ANA Chicago and the gold Kennedy debacle. Obviously this CoinTalk thing needed a dose of reality.

4) It. Still. Does.

5) I absolutely HATE, HATE , HATE, the personality type of poker players, all gamblers really, now that I think about it. My first ex-wife turned out to be a chain smoking casino rat, okay?

6) I teach also. I have given now 7 Numismatic Theater/Money Talks presentations and I am hoping to be selected for my 8th this summer.

7) I have volunteered in service to the ANA over and over and over again. I have an app called "App In The Air" that chronicles my coin travel to MAJOR shows (mostly ANA, a coupla FUN) just since 2014, and it doesn't include the frequent "fly there, take Amtrak home" mileage. It shows 17,199 miles flown and 50 hours in the air, ALL AT MY EXPENSE, to give talks at shows, plus other activities.

7a) I don't do that to make money, sell anything, or to "SUPPLEMENT MY INCOME". I do it because I'm invited to do it presumably because the ANA likes my stuff.

Are. We. Clear?

 

Now we know everything about Kurt's Apple devices and GSC's "marketing strategy"

Back to the topic: why are toned coins so popular...? I'd say it's because an average coin is not good enough for an advanced collection. A high quality fleur de coin, a key date/variety or a rainbow toner is a special coin though. I'd post a picture of my latest acquisition (MS67, super nice toner), but there's still this SW issue with Tapatalk...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Well, thanks for your service. I guess you really are a tiny point of light.