Fire damaged CC's

I guess I just don't share that old American "entrepreneur's creed" - "if they're dumb enough to buy it, I'll sell it to them." So what's YOUR interest in promoting the sale of problem coins?

My concern is ethics. Ever hear of it?

 

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If we keep begging that question hard enough, sooner or later it's bound to give in.

"We need to teach all collectors not to buy problem coins."

Why?

"Because they'll take a bath when they try to sell them."

Why?

"Because, as we teach all collectors, problem coins aren't worth buying."

(Yeah, I'm intercepting a comment that I'm pretty sure wasn't directed at me...)

Sure, I've heard of ethics. It's the thing that prevents me from offering a problem coin as problem-free, or offering a VG coin as VF, or offering an 1881-S Morgan as "KEY DATE RARE COIN", or offering an SGS "MS70" at the price of a PCGS MS70.

Do you think someone's being unethical if they offer a VG coin or an 1881-S Morgan at all? (Okay, the SGS 70 was a bad example.)

The suggestion was "maybe we shouldn't just tell people to avoid problem coins altogether". Interpreting that suggestion as "I want to be able to dump my problem coins on unsuspecting buyers" is overreaching. And assuming that anyone buying a problem coin is "dumb enough" is, as I said, begging the question.

 

I can't see anyone arguing for 'the people should buy problem coins' unless they are themselves buying them and reselling them for a profit to rubes. And those rubes may in fact be happy to buy them way above their actual value not knowing any better. But eventually when going to sell them someone is going to be faced with a very harsh reality and likely not be very happy. And that's assuming that they could even sell them to a dealer as many simply won't touch them at all.

 

Jeff made the point very well. Ethics has nothing to do with people collecting something they want to as values they deem appropriate.

Selling a problem coin as a problem coins is in no way unethical. If people want to buy a details coin they also are not someone getting scammed.

Calling them dumb or uneducated for liking it is telling people how they have to collect. The majority of slabbed detail coins sales are people knowing what they are doing who want a coin with more detail than they could afford problem free.

Insinuating they are all sales taking advantage of people is just wrong

 

I would normally say I'd be shocked if anyone disagreed with this but I know some here do as I've read through similar conversations here. Baffles me to say the least.

 

There is no ethical problem in selling problem coins as long as the problem is disclosed at the time of sale. If the coin is designated as a problem coin by the TPG or the seller offers the coin raw but clearly describes the problem with the coin, then caveat emptor applies. The only time ethics enters the equation is when someone knowingly sells a problem coin as a problem free coin for the price of a problem free coin.

Furthermore, there are instances where buy a problem coin can be an affordable alternative to an otherwise expensive coin, key date coins come to mind. In this case, the problem coin will still maintain a level of liquidity and value, and could be a solid purchase with resale potential.

As you can guess, I don't subscribe to the theory that problem coins should be avoided at all costs.

 

Easy solution...offer melt for it. When they laugh, you laugh harder and walk away.

 

I tend to stay away coins that were in fires because if you wanna sell it they are sometimes hard to sell, talking personally about this.

 

I bought this a few years ago. I intended to bust it out and convert it to a 'pocket piece', but that ain't happened yet. Picked it up for a really good price. It's not a but(t) coin as free will reigned, and besides, I already had a few (clean grades) in my stable. I just couldn't pass up on a price so favorable and a soldier most honorable.........

 

Tagging @-jeffB, @Lehigh96, and maybe especially @baseball21 with this post, and anyone else who is sanguine about trading in problem coins.

I would agree totally with you if I believed something that I don't. And that belief would be that problem coins are either going to be stable or improving in their desirability in the hobby in the coming years. [As someone wrote above, extreme rarities are and will long be the exception here.] The truth of problem coins' undesirability today will only get worse in the future in my opinion. They may indeed approach valuelessness.

Why do I say that? Because the true collector market is shrinking. Yes, the highly casual market (see the newbs in the Error section) is fine, and the uberwealthy supercollector market is strong. But the middle is undeniably hollowing out. (See economics generally.) That means that the supply/demand calculations will also be changing in the mid-market. More and more good pieces will be chasing fewer and fewer interested collectors. Therefore they will be able to be choosier, and therefore problem coins' "discount" will grow and approach "bullion value only".

I don't buy the "rah rah" idea that coin collecting is fine generally. It's in a slow free fall, and that has consequences.

That said, I have recently bought an obvious problem coin (a 1926 Oregon Trail half) which I believe has MULTIPLE problems. I bought it to teach about problem coins. I got it for about 20% of what it would have gone for if not for the problems.

 

Kurt, it may simply be that you're taking a longer view of the market than I am.

If your scenario does pan out, then the value of everything numismatic is likely to tank. (I'm excluding the .01% that only interests the "uberwealthy supercollector"; I'll never play in that sandbox.)

And if that's the case, your argument that it's unethical to sell a problem coin would surely also make it equally unethical to sell a respectable MS63 1881-S Morgan, or a VG 1915 Barber half, or... well, anything that currently has "numismatic value" above bullion, but isn't top-of-the-top.

To be honest, when I buy or sell a piece, I'm not thinking about the end of the hobby and market as a whole. Is that an ethical failing? I'll entertain arguments, but I think you'll have an uphill battle convincing me, and probably anyone else.

 

No, it's merely a prediction (I call it a recognition, but why quibble?) that there are some segments that are going to collapse farther faster than others, and problem coins will lead the way down. Yes, a good deal of other "normal" material will also continue a downward slide, just not as far or as fast.

 

My feeling is that the "problem coin market" (such as it is) is already about as collapsed as it's going to get. On the other hand, you have worlds more experience in and exposure to numismatics as a whole than I do, so I feel kind of silly waving any such assertion at you.

I know my own thoughts, though, and I know that learning more about numismatics has actually improved my attitude toward some classes of problem coins. If that's because of some special insight, I'm sure I'm not the only one who's had it; if it's just my particular folly, again, I doubt that I'm the only such fool. Gather enough of us, and we make a market.

So, I guess what I should really be doing is encouraging everyone to continue trash-talking problem coins -- it keeps them affordable for those of us who have, or haven't, seen the light.

 

I disagree with this. The internet market is pretty alive and well and rather healthy overall even if a lot of internet collectors collect more modern things. The show going market is certainly shrinking and many don't have what they would like to spend on coins, but by no means is collecting dying. Show attendance is probably down and ANA membership likely is as well but collectors no longer need either of those things anymore with the internet now.

As far as the future of details coins, I do not believe them to be the kiss of death that should be avoided at all cost. Most importantly they all have varying degrees of issues. There are plenty that would look pretty good in an album if someone was putting an album together. Yes some are a complete mess but most just have some issue that if the buyer is aware can get them the coin much cheaper.

The other thing too is just sometimes people don't have a choice. If they want a 1795 half or a bust dollar some people do have to look for details ones because of the price points.

As far as future value you mentioned you believed they will only be worth melt. IF the market ever got that bad that anything detailed was just melt value everyone will have lost a ton of money and it wouldn't matter what kind of coins you had unless you had a TDN type collection that the ultra rich would be interested in. I do not believe nor do online sales really support that we are in for a total collapse. Is the market slower than before sure, but nothing that it hasn't been through before.

 

I'm left with the choice to believe you or the VAST majority of the numismatic press. Hmm. I'm gonna hafta go with them on this one, sorry buddy. Dave Harper has repeatedly PROVEN, yes PROVEN to my satisfaction that numismatics is on a downward glide slope. I don't even view it as an arguable proposition. The Internet actually requires MORE knowledge to not get scammed than in-person transactions do. I'd venture to say that what MOST people get on the Internet is scammed.

 

Internet business speaks for itself. It is track-able from eBay to Heritage, to Stacks to DLRC ect and grading companies are doing record volume recently. Some of the old press guard have really struggled with adjusting to the internet era. Doom and gloomers have also been saying that collecting was dying for the last century yet here it is.

You don't have to believe anyone, go look at the numbers and see the massive volume being done online in various venues everyday. Numbers don't lie.

 

See the edit above.

 

Not even remotely true. That is just an antiquated position to be honest. However this type of thinking is why some people cannot understand how internet based collectors can exist therefore they are dismissed and things like ANA membership, Magazine subscriptions, show attendance are used to show a "decline". Those things are dying for sure, and I will make a bold prediction that by 2030 the ANA will be almost entirely irrelevant because of the internet. The next wave of collectors don't care about paying for information they can get for free from online resources.

The reality is its actually much easier to get scammed in person. You're already online it takes 2 minutes to look up whatever you want while buying not just listening to sales pitches and hoping you remember right. You actually have more protection online from the electronic payments. You hand a guy cash at a store or a show and good luck ever getting that back from a scam

 

PS

You know what would really help collecting and future collectors, not having to hear everyday how the hobby is dying just because people use the internet now instead of the ANA or whatever physical measure they decide to use besides cold hard sales numbers.

 

Not a sustainable thing, nor a reliable thing. There are a few things I KNOW FOR SURE:
1) Most information, and definitely most TRUE information, is not on the Internet, period.
2) Information vetting online is a shambles at best. It gets swamped by marketing concerns and clickbait.
3) Paywalls for useful information are EXPLODING because they have to. You can't pay journalists and give away their work for free forever.
4) Online advertising is VASTLY overpriced for its effectiveness, and always has been and advertisers are slowly waking up to that fact.

The Internet is only one ingredient in the frosting of the numismatic cake; it can never be the cake.