Antinous - opinions please

As I have mentioned previously, I am looking for a nice big Antinous medallion for my portrait series. Almost all of these I see on the market are heavily tooled or have problems. I came across this one and wanted your thoughts:

https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/sh..._and_magnificent_portrait/844301/Default.aspx

At 43mm, quite magnificent! But what's with the redness? Corrosion? I'd deinitely want to negotiate on price. But is this coin ok in your opinion?

 

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The redness is a form of corrosion but I've never seen it be active corrosion, it's just the result of past corrosion in my experience. The metal under it will probably be very ugly and pitted if you attempt to remove it. Unfortunately I don't know enough about the style of these to tell you whether it's tooled or not so hopefully someone else can speak to that.

 

Active corrosion would show up as light blue-green. The red could be previously treated corrosion or color variation in the patina. Photo is not very high resolution, so I can't zoom in to get much comfort.

Speaking for myself, at this price point, I'd be wary about buying anything without a verifiable provenance.

I was at a coin show recently and Pegasi had a decent quality Alexandrian drachm with Antinoos. It was worn but all the devices were clear and the portrait instantly recognizeable. It was a fraction of the price of this medallian, but not as detailed.

 

it's pretty, i don't know about price tho.

 

I suspect 90% of the Antinous coins offered are fake and most of the real ones are tooled. If that seller had a real and untouched one, I can't imagine he would be likely to come down in price. If you must have one, buy from a dealer completely beyond reproach.

His coins are posthumous and include medallions that are beyond rare. No LIE, if I were wanting to represent him in my collection I might consider a coin of Hadrian from Alexandria from year 15 which was when Antinous died by drowning in the Nile. Here we are 1900 years after the event and we really don't know the circumstances of his death. We never will. Some of the suggestions are interesting to say the least.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinous

 

Greg, for coins in this class of rarity and price, you really should considering retaining an experienced dealer who can vet the coin (preferably in hand). At this price range and with this rarity and ubiquity of tooling, fakes, and other problems, it would be money well spent.

 

Excellent advice. Not really sure how to organise from Australia the in-hand viewing by an expert in Israel (that's where Shick is, i think?). More likely I'd have to wait for a CNG auction of a similar piece and find someone with expertise who can view it in person.

On the other hand, Shick is bound by vcoins code of ethics. I could buy then send to Sear?

I won't spend this kind of money unless it's something really special, and then it would have to be genuine beyond doubt.

 

I'm not well versed in these other than knowing of their existence, and have seen way too many fakes. Not sure entirely, but looks close enough to be a die match?


http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fakes/displayimage.php?album=search&cat=0&pos=7

 

i''m no expert, it's nice, but not a match

 

Yes, i also have an Antinous drachm on my watch list:
https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/zu..._ry_21_of_hadrian_ad_1367/845933/Default.aspx

Not quite as magnificent as the other one, but this drachm has fewer doubts in my mind.

Incidentally who is a dealer "beyond reproach"? Are Zurqieh or Shick generally considered to be in that category? I have bought from both before... one I trust more than the other

Yes, I find the whole story of Antinous fascinating - a mysterious death that sparked a cult.

 

Certainly the fake is the same type.
The OP coin looks genuine to me, but it could be a very good fake. This is a type plagued with fakery and tooling.

 

With a medallion like this, I bet there's a good chance some of the more experienced and active dealers/reps have seen this coin or otherwise know of it and perhaps have already examined in in-hand. Also, some of those dealers might know of others you'd be interested in. Might be worth contacting Ed Waddell about representation. He seems to represent a lot of buyers and he seems to know who has what. Maybe he's seen this Shick coin; maybe he has another trusted dealer friend who has examined the coin, etc.

 

Thanks TIF, I'm going to shoot Ed an email and see what he can do for me.

 

I think David is right-- taking into account difference of shooting angle, that reverse looks like a die match. The obverse is different but that doesn't rule out forgery.

Here's another example from that reverse die, with artificial aging. The obverse die of this one might be a match:

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=89855.0

Composite, with photoshopping to somewhat correct the shooting angle distortion of the Forvm fake coin:

 

I've been to Antinopolis in Egypt. Pretty interesting place, on the east bank of the Nile, across the river from Hermopolis Magna, now known as El-Ashmunein. Some of the forum of Hermpolis Magna remains, with Greek inscriptions on the stonework, but very little remains of Antinopolis. Some of the villagers in the area believe that the site is occupied by evil jinn, in a mythology that started after the Muslim conquest of Egypt.

Antinopolis was founded by Hadrian as a testament to the dead youth. There are a lot of mysteries and alternative theories with regard to the demise of Antinous

 

What struck me, no pun intended, was the same beaded indentation between the IC behind the bull. It's not perfectly round there in both.

 

Damn you're good! Artificial aging (if that's what it is) can disguise a die match.

I've shot off an email to Shick asking about provenance to see if he can shed more light. But now I'm leaning towards a forgery verdict.

 

Maxim Shick is an honest and trustworthy dealer. Ordering from Israel can take a while. My last order took 8 weeks.

 

I have never had a problem with Shick. However, Israel antiquuties laws caused me massive delays in deliveries (like @Deacon Ray , I see.)

 

Always happy to wait a little longer for something if it's coming from someone trustworthy.