Green spots

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by moneycostingmemoney, Apr 5, 2017.

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  1. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    Koinsolve active ingredient is a degreaser n-Propyl Bromide. it is currently approved on a MSDS list, but I don't use it because I am concerned about bromide chemicals in the home , outside of industry or a lab. By that aside personally, once you use it as a degreaser on a metallic coin, what next? There is nothing protecting the surface any longer from humidity and environmental gases. They are natural, but exposed. Yeah, always something :)
     
    desertgem, Apr 8, 2017
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  3. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    I think that's a good policy.
    It's my understanding the PCGS "coin sniffer" will pick it up.
     
    eddiespin, Apr 8, 2017
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  4. moneycostingmemoney

    moneycostingmemoney Yukon Coriolis

    How about a black spot? I tried acetone on a qtip with no success. At first it looked like someone gave her an earring with a sharpie but I thought acetone would have taken that off...
     

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    moneycostingmemoney, Apr 8, 2017
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  5. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    My understanding is that it won't
     
    Kentucky, Apr 8, 2017
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  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It's been so long I can't recall for certain which one of you is correct. Thad may have to verify, but if memory serves I think the question stems from a video made by PCGS regarding the sniffer. In that video they show a picture of some of the things that the sniffer will detect. And I'm thinking the picture shows a bottle of Verdi-Gone, the predecessor of Verdi-Care. And I think Thad once said that the sniffer could not detect Verdi-Gone in a thread where that video was discussed because Verdi-Gone would completely evaporate and leave no trace on the coin. But because Verdi-Care leaves behind a protective film I would think that the sniffer could detect it.

    But like I said, I'm going completely by memory here, so Thad will have to verify.


    edit - I would add one thing here. Even if Verdi-Care is detectable that may not be such a bad thing. I say that because leaving verdigris on the coin, when you know with certainty that would be a bad thing, is arguably the greater evil of the two.

    What it boils down to is a question, and this question applies to all forms of cleaning including dipping a coin, would you prefer to do what you could to protect the coin, or leave it alone and let guaranteed damage proceed unchecked ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2017
    GDJMSP, Apr 9, 2017
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  7. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    No acetone won't even touch spots like that, and there are many other kinds of spots acetone won't touch either. Same thing for xylene.

    As for what "that" spot is exactly, you may have already nailed it, it may well be from a sharpie or some other similar product.

    The simple, but unwanted, answer is that there are some spots, quite a few in fact, that are quite difficult to remove. And one in particular, genuine carbon spots, cannot be removed even by a coin dip for they are literally in the metal and not on the metal like most spots are.

    But yes, a coin dip will remove most kinds of spots. And it can be used on the entire coin or locally. However, if and when you remove them locally it will result in something almost as bad as the original spot was. That is a tiny area, another spot if you will, that is lighter in color than the rest of the coin and thus just as visible and arguably detracting as the dark colored spot you originally had.

    Of course you can experiment with diluting the dip, feathering it out in adjoining areas, and all kinds of things. But the end result is almost always not much better than what you had to begin with. So dipping the entire coin is often the best from among a group of bad solutions.

    And I say that because you will typically only get good results from dipping the entire coin when the coin is high enough MS, or put another way, if the coin retains a high enough quality of luster. Low MS grade coins and circulated coins sometimes do not turn out so well when dipped.
     
    GDJMSP, Apr 9, 2017
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  8. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Yes, Doug, and I saw that same PCGS video. In fact, we have threads on the issue. The old coin schnozzle catches it.

    So don't be a sap and submit it to their SecurePlus tier where they can play forensic laboratory games with it and those overpaid fool "expert" graders will holder it every time. ;)
     
    eddiespin, Apr 9, 2017
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  9. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    moneycostingmemoney said: ↑
    1 Is ANY use of Verdi-care considered a "cleaning"?
    eddiespin said: ↑
    It's my understanding the PCGS "coin sniffer" will pick it up.
    Kentucky said: ↑
    My understanding is that it won't

    Doug said:

    It's been so long I can't recall for certain which one of you is correct. Thad may have to verify, but if memory serves I think the question stems from a video made by PCGS regarding the sniffer. In that video they show a picture of some of the things that the sniffer will detect. And I'm thinking the picture shows a bottle of Verdi-Gone, the predecessor of Verdi-Care. And I think Thad once said that the sniffer could not detect Verdi-Gone in a thread where that video was discussed because Verdi-Gone would completely evaporate and leave no trace on the coin. But because Verdi-Care leaves behind a protective film I would think that the sniffer could detect it.

    But like I said, I'm going completely by memory here, so Thad will have to verify.

    I said:

    As Jimski's quote of Verdi-care description, the layer on the coin surface is permanent, and as such is not volatile and could not be detect by any sniffer analytic device. The outermost layer is water soluble, so if any thing, one might observe any reflection,as thus it can can removed with water and water can be removed with acetone, so a 2 step rise and you have the coin surface pure again ( get it slabbed fast as it may turn before PCGS gets it done) or leave protected if you are not submitting it ( no rinse). Now if TPGs start using mass or x-ray spectro, it might detect the graders DNA :) There is such a thing as too much sensitivity. Jim

    P.S. Acetone removes black permanent marker quite well from coins.
     
    desertgem, Apr 9, 2017
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  10. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    OK, Verdicare is said to leave a thin protective layer on the surface. The sniffer is a ATR FTIR (Attenuated Total Reflectance - Fourier Transform InfraRed if you REALLY have to know) and doesn't have the sensitivity to pick it up. @BadThad correct me.
     
    Kentucky, Apr 9, 2017
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  11. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    I guess we should call PCGS's tool a "Peeper" instead of a "Sniffer" ! Don't know which is worse :)
     
    desertgem, Apr 9, 2017
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  12. moneycostingmemoney

    moneycostingmemoney Yukon Coriolis

    I say preserve it to a point as close to MS as possible. If the coin was a low mintage piece and the worst thing on it is a protective film I feel as if I did it a service.
     
    moneycostingmemoney, Apr 10, 2017
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  13. moneycostingmemoney

    moneycostingmemoney Yukon Coriolis

    That's what I thought. So I'm working with something else here...but I'm hesitant to do a dip because of the cool toning and what it cost me/could be worth. I may try xylene locally and if that doesn't work I'll just leave it alone.
     
    moneycostingmemoney, Apr 10, 2017
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  14. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Which reminds me of a joke that could get me a warning...
     
    Kentucky, Apr 10, 2017
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  15. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor Supporter

    Your reconsideration is appreciated. Probably more than a warning. :(
     
    desertgem, Apr 10, 2017
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