Ebay...Still a Cherrypickers Paradise 2017'

You're suggesting petty childish motives on the part of political actors?!?! Good point.

 

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Except for that one 1916-D Mercury dime with the "D" rattling around loose inside the holder. (Allegedly). There were some dealers discussing that one at the spring Baltimore show last year. Rumors were that the owner got lifetime free submissions and they paid him the value of what a real one would have been. But again, all just rumors.

 

Let us not forget Charles Barber's enmity, either. Roosevelt - and his proteges - would not have been popular with those having a vested interest in the status quo at the Mint.

 

One thing I've heard told differently is whether or not proof dies were later used for business strikes. I've heard "yes", "no" and even lots of "maybes".

I want to think they didn't do it but who knows? It would have saved a few pennies so to speak, so you can see that there could have been some motivation for it. I don't know that anyone has definitively shown a business strike to have the proper diagnostics of a proof - without a doubt - although I've seen some coins in my own collection that had some of the same die lines as a proof - but not all of them.

Anyone else find a business strike with ALL the diagnostic die lines of a proof? The usual find turns out to often be just an EDS strike. I've found a handful of those too.

 

I can't speak for Lincolns, but in other series Proof dies went on to strike Business Strike coins with certainty. The practice certainly wasn't considered "taboo," and I'm left wondering if it only didn't happen when sufficient Business Strike dies were produced for the whole run and/or the Business Strike run was done before the Proofs were finished.

Do I recall - maybe even from this thread somewhere - that there were a couple years of shared reverse dies among the MPL's? That would argue against Business Strike usage for any of them, due to implying that there was a separate system in place for handling Proof dies in this case.

 

I know one thing...I been thinking about the VDB's that everyone saying was proven not to be Matte Proof because the Die markers weren't there...I'D LIKE TO SEE THEM somebody PLEASE show them to Me...I want to see if they have some of the same die markers and if so I think we just may have found where all the other MPL's are...Like I said,When the first one got graded it's looks were made Law....And we will never Know the Truth until the Philadelphia Mint steps in...And another thing the 1909 that is considered to be from a set of new die's used,I wonder if he would have showed it here would you guys have called PCGS got his certification frozen because it didn't have the so called RIGHT DIE MARKERS even when it was graded by PCGS and not RAW..You think all this new die talk have ever came about...I just Want To Know - No Pund Intended...???????

 

Here is the thread by one of the co-founders of the 1909. Charmy (The Penny Lady) found another one around the same time.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/771316/new-1909-mpl-die

 

Here is the follow up thread. It looks like this really wasn't a new die, just a re-discovery of die #3 listed in Leonard Albrecht's pamphlet from 1983.

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/772338/1909-mpl-new-die-listing-updated

 

They're posted on Page 3 of this thread.

The Philadelphia Mint's archived records are accessible to the public. You can go see what they recorded about these dies any time you want, as long as you make an appointment. They're ten miles from me as the crow flies; I ride public transportation to them. That's what the people who quote Mint records have done - they've gone to the National Archives and read the records in person.

The difference between your coin and the "new" 1909 non-VDB Proof die:

There was a plausible explanation for the need for a new die pair for 1909 non-VDB. The Mint records 4 shipments of 1909 non-VDB Proofs: 852 on August 17, 810 on August 26, 500 on December 8 and 180 on December 24. It's reasonable to believe, due to their absolute scarcity, that the "new" dies only struck the December shipment(s); had they struck any of the earlier shipments as well, the proportion of "new" die examples would be far higher. Since there were no shipments between August and December, it's also reasonable to assume the Mint had decided that 1909 Proofs were "done" and retired the dies. Good reason to create new dies for the later runs, and it should be mentioned that the dies for the "new" Proofs were not as sharp as the originals, showing evidence of having been created by relatively worn hubs - just as you'd expect from dies done by hubs which had created a bunch of working Business Strike dies.

And this is important: The same obverse die which struck all of the 1909VDB Proofs also struck all but the "new" 1909 non-VDB Proofs. The same obverse markers are on both versions.

There was no need for a "new" 1909VDB Proof die.

If I'm parsing that thread correctly, shouldn't there therefore be three known obverses for 1909 (the first three of Albrecht's obverses)? Or have none been found with the die-cracked Albrecht #2?

 

What exactly are you wanting to see? Do you want to see several VDB's with matching diagnostics? Post #89 shows a diagnostic from 7 or 8 coins.

 

The way I'm reading is this is Obverse die #3, with the possibility that die #2 coins were caught and taken out of the population. It looks like the reverse die is a discovery piece.

 

All known VDB's have these two markers. There are more, I've just only done these so far.

A die scratch from the shoulder to the field toward the R in LIBERTY and a curved die scratch from the top right hand side of the B in LIBERTY radiating up into the field.

Click on each image for a better view.

 

Larry, if you want to have someone to look at that will offer an unbiased professional examination, why not contact Kevin Flynn?

 

Robec I did,that's why he's here now...I like the fact that all the VDB's on file have the same Die Markers I see some markings on my coin that doesn't show in photos my guess is the toning and lighting makes it hard to see BUT in Hand it a totally different story...Anyway,It doesn't matter this coin is so old I know if it could talk it would tell a wild and crazy story look at the hits it took that says to me Great Depression 1929' too 1939' BUT from 1909' too 2016' when it hit my hand that was the end of his journey...

I sent him off to PCGS and it came back as Me and other people that said send it in thought it would be a "Matte Proof"...Just the anticipation of getting it back from PCGS was Killing me so Much I know I could never sell it even with the cert.# frozen just seeing it frozen in time in a slab and not raw is good enough for me..

WHY...???? because I really didn't get into this hobby to make money I got into it to have some nice looking coins in my collection nothing more nothing less because when it's all said and done a coin is only worth what someone is willing to pay so even if it did have the die markers it would never bring $40,000K because it has No Pedigree (Starting One Now..LOL)...LOVE the History lesson fellas I think it's a book right here in this coin I know a Hellava Story....Thanks Again,LP

 

If anyone wants to play "Where's Waldo?", @robec has left a miniscule magnifying glass in each image. Really! Can you find them? Happy searching!

 

That's why I put them in circles around the markers in the first photo. Sorry if you can't make 'em out.

 

Robec
Quick Question..??
How many coins do you think get struck from Die's before they check them for damages...??? Dies and or Coins

 

Larry, I've seen some figures where business strikes use dies for up to 6 figures, hundreds of thousands.
With Matte Proofs, it seems they limited them generally to several hundred to maybe the low thousand range.
The VDB and non VDB 1909 proofs are an interesting case because for years they reported 420 VDBs and then who knows how many 1909 non VDB before they went to the 2nd obverse die with the non VDB.
Kevin Flynn found documents saying they made over 1,000 VDBs and then at least several hundred of the plain 1909 with the same obverse die.
I've kind of sided with the 420 number of VDB proofs because that same obverse die got some substantial use with the plain 1909.
Anyway, to answer your question I'm pretty sure with Proofs, it was less than 2,000 with any one die and with business strikes, 100 times that many.

 

Deefree is right on the money..

 

No, literally - you literally have tiny magnifying glasses in the pictures. These must be huge on your monitor, because the magnifying glass cursor is not all that tiny!

Your photos are so amazing that I wanted to give you a friendly heads-up before these snuck into any more of your screen captures.