toning and grading

I know that natural toning of a coin's surface supposedly does not lower the coin's grade. However, what about coins grading in the high mint states. Can a coin actually earn a grade of MS-70 if it has lost some of its original luster due to toning? And, if not, is this not evidence that toning can, and sometimes does decrease the grade of a coin?

 

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Good point. Probably depends on the grader. However, I don't think I've ever seen a toned coin in a graded slab much more than an MS60 or maybe a MS62. Now that would be something to check into. I myself could not see a professional grading service grade a coin as MS65, 66, etc since the reason for toning is contamiates on the coin. Many of these are chemically bonded meaning some of the metal of the coin has been turned into another compound and no longer part of the original coin. Sure wish I had seen this post prior to Sunday. Just went to a coin show and could have looked around and asked about this.
I'll bet if you went to that tonedcoins web site they all would say the more toning the better.

 

I would expect that the ultra-high grade modern coins will see their grades fall after they age and tone. Nobody is going to pay MS69-MS70 money for a toned/tarnished coin regardless of what it says on the holder.

 

According to the ANA Grading Standards book:

MS-70 - The perfect coin. Has very attractive sharp strike and original luster of the highest quality for the date and mint. No contact marks are visible under magnification. There are absolutely no hairlines, scuff marks or defects. Attractive and outstanding eye appeal. Copper coins must be bright with full original color and luster.


This definition would suggest that a coin cannot attain a grade of MS-70 if it has toning (ie full original color). If this is the case, then am I correct in saying that toning does lessen the grade of a coin? And, if so, then why are we in the hobby going around telling newbies that toning does not decrease the coins value?

 

Look on Teletrade, they actually highlight toned coins and nicely toned coins tend to bring higher bids for the same coin with the same grade with no toning.

 

Thats because right now, nicely attractive toned coins are in demand

 

I've seen an ugly brown morgan in an NGC MS-65 slab.

 

I have several Toned coins that are slabbed by NGC and PCGS that are graded MS67.Theres not a lot of older coins graded 68 or higher Toned or not, so I can't say for sure about that. I do however have some toned Proofs that are Graded PR 69.
But I don't think I have seen a PR 70 that was toned.

 

I think I'll go along with that. From what I've seen about crazes, I feel toned coins as a biggy is temporary. I know there are even toned coin forums now but just like Beanie Babies, may fade away. Not to long ago a toned coin would be cleaned due to no one wanting them. At coin shows in the past a toned coin would just sit. Now since people are making a big thing about AT and NT, this part of the hobby has grown.
If it crashes like the Beanie Babies, there will be substantial loss in value for such coins.
However, just an opinion. I myself don't like toned coins. I like originality. To me a toned coin would be like adding a mustache on the Mona Lisa.

 

I have seen beautifully toned coins in MS-65 & better slabs, usually they are Morgan $'s.

 

There would be a big difference if the mustache grew naturally (NT) on the Mona Lisa or if someone added it (AT)! LOL

 

That about sums it up.

 

How could there ever be a MS-70 toned coin when by ANA definition the coin must have "full original color"?

MS-70 - The perfect coin. Has very attractive sharp strike and original luster of the highest quality for the date and mint. No contact marks are visible under magnification. There are absolutely no hairlines, scuff marks or defects. Attractive and outstanding eye appeal. Copper coins must be bright with full original color and luster.

 

It is possible that 20 years from now, all of those coins in MS70 holders will be described as "Once considered perfect, this coin still retains most of the characteristics of a coin of the highest quality."

 

Doug, does that apply to circulated coins, as well? I know toning is a market factor--at least, to some, it has value. But, take two F coins, for example, technically-speaking, distinguished only on the basis of toning; one has superior eye-appeal, due to superior toning. Do the TPG market graders "market grade" that one higher? A circulated, technically-graded F coin? I'd think, to be consistent, toning now being understood by them as a grading factor, they'd necessarily have to. Just trying to get the lay of this...

 

So all in a day's work. At least, that's consistent. Just to nail this down, please take a look at these two '44-S cent sets. As you can see, the untoned set technically grades higher than the toned set. However, just assume the toning in the toned set is "eye-appealing." I can see somebody conceivably thinking that, anyway, as it does have interesting coloring and distribution (...and my poor pictures, really, don't do that complete justice, just trust me on that). In effect, then, this toned '44-S can achieve the same market grade as this untoned example? I guess I understand that from your answer, but I'm looking to confirm it. This isn't a trick question, though, I hope you know I don't clown like that. Thanks.

Oops, forgot to include the reverses. But I think we'll just save the bandwidth on those because they're not really necessary to answer the question...