Should be where's it at! 1972 penny doubled die confirmation.

With all due respect, Pat; you need to stop making assumptions and spend some time familiarizing yourself with the reality of this little sham. This isn't a difficult concept to understand. Just because people sell them for premiums and prey upon those who do not understand the realities of scrap copper, this doesn't mean (as already said) that even if the ban was lifted, refiners are going to pay anywhere close to the content value. Again, while a "copper" cent may technically contain metals worth the listed amount, the fact they are in alloy form renders it meaningless. The quoted value is for GRADE A copper yet is being applied an alloy. Please, do a little homework, if not for your own benefit, for those who may be reading this. What I stated was not "false", sir, but is fact. You may not being doing so intentionally, but the claims you're making are both misleading and potentially dangerous, particularly to those looking to make an easy buck.

Perhaps @cpm9ball would like to add a little more to the discussion?

 

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Copper has a melting point of 1,984 degrees Fahrenheit; zinc 787.2 degrees Fahrenheit. I don't think separating the two would be a feat of modern engineering.

 

In spite of the fact that I have been arguing for many, many years against the idea that a copper alloy is worth the same as Grade A copper, we still get people who come here thinking that very fact. They just haven't done their homework. Instead of taking the easy way out and believing what they read on Coinflation or some other jerk-water site, I suggest that they spend the time calling every reclamation center within 300 miles of their home and ask what they will pay for copper alloy. They don't have to mention that the alloy is copper pennies! That is what I did!

Chris

 

Big deal! Why don't you go ahead and buy all the equipment necessary for a clean extraction/separation, hire the extra workers, pay for the added energy required and then come back and tell us that it costs exactly the same to melt Grade A copper and a copper alloy.

What do you think, @BooksB4Coins ?

Chris

 

One misconception, bronze cents melt at approx. 1700 F. not at the temperature of copper So @ that temp, zinc or tin would not be 'melted out' separately. The temperature would melt the mixture entirely, together. Now what do you do? As once said " Its more complicated".

 

I use the N.F. String and Sons as an example because they already have a working model of separating pre-1982 cents from the modern copper clad. I believe they use the mega-sorting machine with this ability for the cents only if they have a large active order. However, they appear to run mega sorter searching for silver non-stop. (Please note: I don't suggest buying anything from their ebay portal for numismatic value since it appears they bulk clean the coins with chemicals before running them thru the machine.) They even occasionally sell quarters in bulk that were once gold-plated with the minute amounts of gold removed. They already have the infrastructure and business connections in place to pull the ebay listing and start melting IF (big if) the legality of melting coppers ever changes.

 

So, I suppose that this so-called working model comes with a complete cost analysis for building and running such an extraction process.

Well, no! It's just a model to separate 95% copper coins from Zincolns.

Gee, that's a good idea! How much does it cost to build and operate the plant.

Ummmm.......I don't know!

What do you think they will charge potential customers for this service?

Maybe I should call some reclamation centers in my area.

That sounds like a good idea!

Chris

 

I get it now!!! Copper pennies are worth less than a penny regardless of what a dollar really is worth compared to the real value of precious, semi-precious and industrial metals from reasonable data and the fact that fiat money is actually worth less than the paper it's printed on when melted.

JP Morgan(the world champion of metals short selling), nor anyone or thing like that, certainly isn't doing any behind the scenes puppet-string-pulling market-manipulation with regards to anything relative to the rabidity elicting discussion.

Get over yourselves, copper pennies are worth more than face value and will be worth even more when Edited: Political rant dollar bail-out.

 

I feel dumberer after reading this thread.

 

Not an IF at all, it is when. This will have to take place and will just like the pre-65 melt became codified. It will happen sooner than later and in our life-times. Why? Because it is inevitable.

The only way it will not happen is if the drive for metals backed blah blah blah is not defeated by unsavory entities and persons that have blah blah blah from most reading this and their grandchildren too.

It may be a decent idea for some of you to investigate how many states are blah blah blah through to restore metal backed and blah bleh. IF that happens, and our new blah blah has openly broached the subject from various angles, then a copper penny will have more than twice the value of a zinc penny. Hopefully, it will be boot-strapped to a real dollar with actual value, like say, 35 of them will purchase a finely tailored man's suit instead of 2000+ of them.

Yeah, I'll take a dollar I can present for and demand to exchange for a half a pound of copper instead of these bleh blah debt notes that are printed out of thin air doing something not so swell to this blah blah blah.

quasi-political rant edited out

 

?
/

 

That another headache is a brewing and that, perhaps, it would just be easier for us to "get over" ourselves and blindly accept "facts" (like below) from the CT peanut gallery. Nah...

Perhaps, instead of your little rants, you would be so kind as to back up your claim with facts? No ifs and whens or maybes; just reality, please.

 

But, but, but.......Isn't that like work? Wouldn't it mean that they would actually have to call dozens of reclamation centers and actually talk to someone who does it for a living?

Chris

 

I don't have any need to and personally know several owners of local scrap yards.

Research how many of them gave the going spot buy price for melted pennies when copper was 4 bucks a pound.

A few buyers and sellers managed to get criminally charged, at least in this area.

I'm not interested in melting them anyhow.

A penny has more intrinsic value than a paper note, whose recycle value is how much a ton?

Bottom line, I'd rather have a copper roof, alloyed or not, than one made of shredded fiat notes.

"The Treasury Department approves the use of shredded currency in certain circumstances. One permitted use is recycling it (mixing it with other materials) to form a useful manufactured product such as roofing shingles or insulation. In addition, the shredded currency may be placed in firmly sealed containers as novelty items like pens, ornaments and jewelry. However, the Treasury will allow companies or other parties to sell the shredded currency in its original form or where it is readily not recoverable. "

http://papermoneyguide.com/faq.htm#11

I'll give you objectors this, your objection is reasonably consistent despite your never proving what a copper penny is or is not worth. Certainly, you haven't proven that when people do purchase large bulks of sorted copper pennies, paying more than face, they are losing money. Gee, what if they go thru and check them and find key dates, valuable varieties and errors before they all end up melted and very few exist?

 

And lemme make it just a bit easier fur yuns........

Silver bid today is 18.28 troy ounce

Copper spot today is 0.23 troy ounce

Reference the US Debt Clock and see that silver is actually at that big number to the dollar and never even consider the Machiavelli's behind the curtains who are winning for years on end being masters of the short sell while poised perfectly to win coming or going.

Are their activities illegal? They should be.

You can pick that source apart too but you've still offered nothing contrary other than your unsupported assertions.

Next,

Do the math even while consciously refusing acceptance that copper represents intrinsic value. Ignore that during WWII, silver wasn't in short supply, nickel was and today, if some exigent situation manifested requiring mass production of sophisticated machinery, both copper and nickel demand would most certainly increase.

Just do the math yourself since with all your pontificating, you offer only your semi-rabid opinions in objection with nothing substantiating those opinions. Certainly, nothing that remotely rebuts the fact that copper pennies are indeed worth more than face to me and many others.

 

A multi-million dollar company, such as NF String, didn't design and build a machine specifically to pull copper cents out of circulation without first running the numbers to see if it was profitable. They have been around since 1929. This is not their first rodeo in regards to profiting by metal reclamation from circulation.

I would estimate the top currency movers are poised to easily gross a million dollars each (that's giving a low estimate closer to 5-10% premium on copper cents) the first year the trade/melt ban is eliminated. After a certain point, they won't be able to maintain the same levels of profitability because of diminishing supply. However, they are all poised to be among the first and take the lion's share.

When copper prices spike people assess more risk. They no longer care about the legality (some don't care about the legality ever.). It is not difficult to find forum posts dated around the last copper spike of people describing their backyard inventions to separate the metals. There are two different systems: an electrolysis set-up to create copper anodes, or by using known metallurgy techniques (melting and adding an agent to assist in seperation). In order to be profitable in either endeavor you would need to utilize economy of scale.

Many raw coins would probably just end up in Japan or South Korea. Thus the real profiteers will be the exporters and shipping companies. During the last copper spike, export of cents was a growing problem for customs.

The most glaringly obvious use of recycled copper from cents is making new guild copper.

I don't understand why you assume there would be any new building of infrastructure. It already exists. What do you believe happens to cents after they are deemed not fit for circulation?

 

Note to self: This person is a lost cause. Let them learn the hard way.

Chris

 

I guess deflection and bandwagoning is easier than presenting evidence to support your argument.

 

C'mon homie! Some like them size 15+ and some like them size 5-.

I like some of them and copper pennies too!

 

Of course the "intrinsic" value of a copper cent is greater than that of a paper note, but isn't the point here, is it? All this is nothing more than another new member spewing misleading and potentially damaging BS (opps.. "Bovine feces" for @-jeffB) Unlike you, some of us have a spine and actually care about those coming here for solid advice. This general hobby as a whole already suffers greatly from misinformation along with those more than willing to screw the next guy, to the detriment of everyone else involved, in order to make a buck, so why make it worse?

Now, since all you have to back this crap up is claims of refiners paying straight copper spot for melted cents (either the result of incompetence or more likely BS), let me share a little something with you. First, one can build in their basement, for maybe a couple hundred bucks tops (possibly less), a heat treating oven fully capable of melting cents. Once melted into globs or homemade bars, no one for a fact knows they started life as coins, so why aren't more doing this (then or now)? I'll give you a hint; it's because of the alloy, and to a lesser extent the fact that people aren't idiots. When someone walks into said refiner with homemade "brass" or "95%" globs/bars, they know where it's comes from, but if there was money to be made, many would still buy. They don't and for one simple reason - can you guess what that is?

I personally know a gentleman who has been very successful in this business, and we've talked many times at length about this very thing. He's openly stated that if the opportunity was there, he would do it himself considering the relatively low cost of equipment necessary to separate wheat from the chaff, but doesn't. Again, want to guess why?

You can do whatever floats your little boat, but again this isn't about you. This hobby and forum are already filled with idiots looking for an easy buck, so please, don't contribute to the problem.